trike stalls when idling if lights are on

[titusni]

Had my V-Max trike on the road for 3+ months now. The one niggling problem I've been having is that at times when sitting at lights idling it had stalled. Its happened often enough for me to figure out that the common factor is its only when I've my lights on.

I've been chatting to some people on the Vmaxchat site about it but just thought I'd run in past people here for another set of opinions :-)

Its an 1985 Max (original Californian model) and its obviously drawing more power than a stock Max as I now have two headlights (with 60/55W bulbs) instead of the single 60/55W, two side lights on the mudguards, 3 rear lights (two of them combined rear/brake/indicator units), immobiliser, and V-Boost on/off controller.

The battery in it is an 18Ah (off a Goldwing) rather than the stock 16Ah one.

Here's exactly what I see:

Its idling at approx. 1300 on the rpm gauge (so higher than recommended 1050-1150rpm) - the needle is pretty much static, no movement. No cutouts at all with lights off.

This is a US bike so its meant to have lights on permanently - a previous owner added a on/off switch to the loom.

If I flip the lights on the rpm gauge immediately starts flickering back and forth between 1300 and 1100..........after several such needle movements the engine stalls. This is repeatable - no lights its fine, put lights on the idle speed alternates and then it dies.

Hitting the start button brings the engine back to life. If the lights are switched off then the engine will stay on fine......but if the lights are on then it'll cut out again.

I did a crude test by disconnecting one (and then later both) of the headlight bulbs and it seems to idle fine with the lights on as long as I don't have both bulbs connected.

I just bought myself a multimeter so this weekend I'll check the battery voltage whien its running idle and running at 5000 rpm (from Haynes book). I did check the battery voltage when everything's off - its 12.43V.

Later V-Maxes (93+) had a different rectifier which allegedly is more powerful.

The comments I've had from people seem to be that the Alternator isn't rated high enough for the power I'm drawing.

So the possible solutions I've got so far are:

(1) replace the 2 H4 60/55W headlight bulbs for lower rating bulbs

(2) replace the rectifier with the later model rectifier

(3) replace the 18Ah battery with a car battery (would mean having to change the end connectors on the battery leads tho) Any recomendations of batteries?

Anyone got any comments/hints?

[Mad Dog]

More or less answered your own questions.

Changing the battery won't make any difference, that only stores power and is rated to deliver enough to turn over the engine.

It is a charging issue. The Alternator is designed to deliver enough charge rate to keep a motorcycle ignition running, the battery topped up and run a single headlamp/tailamp at the same time. The rectifier calls for more output to handle the lights being on and occassional use of brake lights, indicators and main beam, as required.

You have kitted the trike out with the equivalent power draw of a family saloon car, and therefore the alternator is working to it's limits and really can't keep up.

An electronic ignition system requires a particular steady power supply, so when that faulters or drops (as is usual when a rectifier/regulator fails) the ignition misfires and fails.

The only way is to find out if a higher rated alternator and reg/rec unit are available for the VMax - or try looking for one for the yamaha Venture Royale, coz that is a big cruiser with the same basic engine and often kitted out with more lights.

There are aftermarket high capacity charging systems for Harleys coz they needed them for the Dresser models that ended up festooned with lights.


On another note, I hope you have routed the direct power supply to the lights through relays (and appropriate fuses), and only have the handlebar switches operating the relays.

If not, then your handlebar switch gear will have it's life shortened considerably coz it was never designed to take that load.

This is a common mistake people make when building trikes.


So, in summary:-

No need to change the battery

If the VMAX replacement rectifier allows a higher current draw from the alternator, and it can be supplied by that alternator, then change that.

Fit lower rated bulbs, or better still revert to a single headlamp and fit an H4 Xenon bulb which gives you 30% more light for lower current draw.

Also consider fitting LED lights at rear and sides, this will considerably reduce your power load.

You can now get LED direct replacement bulbs with bayonet fittings - they just go straight into the existing light unit for side, tail, stop & tail and indicators.

Since the change in the Vehicle Lighting Regulations, LEDs have been a legal godsend.

[titusni]

An electronic ignition system requires a particular steady power supply, so when that faulters or drops (as is usual when a rectifier/regulator fails) the ignition misfires and fails.


I should point out that on this age of VMax the CDI is not digital (don't know if that makes any difference at all).


The only way is to find out if a higher rated alternator and reg/rec unit are available for the VMax - or try looking for one for the yamaha Venture Royale, coz that is a big cruiser with the same basic engine and often kitted out with more lights.


The newer VMaxes have a Shindengen SH662-12 regulator/rectifier (25A/200V) - I'm going to price this with the local Yam dealer. Someone on vmaxchat mentioned a SH650 which R1s use recently but Shindegen's www site doesn't really give much info.

As for the alternator - this is part of the engine block isn't it so is it possible to replace it and if so how do I know what other alternater is likely to fit? Is upgrading the reg/rec alone sufficient?


On another note, I hope you have routed the direct power supply to the lights through relays (and appropriate fuses), and only have the handlebar switches operating the relays.

If not, then your handlebar switch gear will have it's life shortened considerably coz it was never designed to take that load.

This is a common mistake people make when building trikes.


I'm not sure. I'll ask my trike builder.


If the VMAX replacement rectifier allows a higher current draw from the alternator, and it can be supplied by that alternator, then change that.


Is there a simple way I could figure out whether the alternator is fine?

According to Mr Haynes, the alternator nominal output is 14V, 25A @ 5000 rpm and regulated voltage output (no load) is 14 to 15V @ 5000 rpm.


Fit lower rated bulbs, or better still revert to a single headlamp and fit an H4 Xenon bulb which gives you 30% more light for lower current draw.


Yeah, I've tried a few places locally for lower rated H4s but so far the all only stock the 60/55W bulbs I already have.


Also consider fitting LED lights at rear and sides, this will considerably reduce your power load.

You can now get LED direct replacement bulbs with bayonet fittings - they just go straight into the existing light unit for side, tail, stop & tail and indicators.


Someone else mentioned LEDs but I didn't realise you could get drop in replacements. Do you know of a www site where I could source these in the UK?

Thanks for all your comments.

[titusni]

Fit lower rated bulbs, or better still revert to a single headlamp and fit an H4 Xenon bulb which gives you 30% more light for lower current draw.


I've been told by a local parts dealer than H4 bulbs don't come with a rating lower than 60/55W.........so there goes that idea.

I could still either go back to single headlight or else have only one headlight for dipped and the other for full beam but I'd rather not do that.

Also consider fitting LED lights at rear and sides, this will considerably reduce your power load.

You can now get LED direct replacement bulbs with bayonet fittings - they just go straight into the existing light unit for side, tail, stop & tail and indicators.


I went out hunting for LED bulbs today - I picked up a couple of ones for the rear tail/brake lights but there's a problem: the bulb mounting are such that the bulbs don't face towards the rear - they're mounted on the back panel facing sideways. This is fine for a normal bulb (as the back panel etc reflects sufficient light out the back) - however with LEDs the rear lights look too dim to me.

That shop unfortunately doesn't do white or amber LEDs suitable for the front-facing side lights and indicators.......I'll keep hunting for those.

I cranked up the trike today and measured the voltage across the battery at idling - 13.75-13.90V with no lights on and 13.05V with sidelights and dipped dual headlights on.

[Fatboyfat]

Try these http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/ M&P also do them,but they are more expensive.

[titusni]

Try these http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/ M&P also do them,but they are more expensive.

Now my problem is to figure out what type of bulbs I have :-)

Anyone know of a good www site that illustrates the different types of bulbs and their part numbers?

[Gypsy]

there is a guy on ebay selling led indicators and white sides very cheap

[titusni]

there is a guy on ebay selling led indicators and white sides very cheap

That'd be "http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=37558&item=4170943785&rd=1" I guess.

I've seen these before (at "http://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/led.htm") - they should work better as rears as I only tested 12 LED bulbs and these ones have 6 of their LEDs mounted radially. However I'm still not sure if they would give enough light for my rears to be "legal" - don't forget that my rear bulb mounts point to the side, not straight backwards.

The problem I have with my other bulbs (in front indicators, front sidelights) is that they're not 382 bulbs - I'm not sure what they are and so can't figure out which LED bulbs could replace them.

[Gypsy]

yeah and there is another guy too that sells the flat, led lights the sealed unit ones, they generaly go for about £5 a set

[titusni]

Last night I changed the 2 x 55/60W H4s for 2 x 35/35W ones. The trike seemed to idle fine afterwards with the dipped/full lights on - none of the "roughness" and a constant rpm speed (rather than the previous 11-1300rpm ping pong).

Went on a 40-odd mile run afterwards mainly on motorway with dipped and/or full...........everything fine. Then got back into the city and whilst sitting at traffic lights trike stalled again after a minute or so.......this time just a straight stall, no change in idle speed just beforehand. It stalls one other time after this (as I coasted to a halt at petrol station).

So I've lowered the current drain by changing the bulbs - it should be around what the stock donor bike normally would draw from the alternator.

Any points as to what to check next?

[Mad Dog]

Here goes, for simplicity sake we'll just consider the lighting circuit:-

Stock Bike:-
headlamp 55watt + Pilot 5 + Tail 10 + Brake 21 (assuming you would be holding the brake when standing still.

This totals 91watts which equals 7.58amps current draw


Trike built from said bike:-

Headlamp 2 x 55 = 110 watts
Pilot 2 x 5 = 10
Tail 2 x 10 = 20
Side 2 x 10 = 20
Reg Plate 5
Brake 2 x 21 = 42

That totals:- 207 watts which equals 17.25amps current draw

Reducing headlamps to 35 watts each saves a total of 40 watts
which equals a saving of 3.3amps

Changing to a sigle 55/65 headlamp would have saved 55 watts or 4.58amps

Further savings would be made by changing to the elusive LEDs


Whichever way you look at it the stock bike draws 7.58 amps and the best saving above with a single headlamp and filament bulbs would give you a total draw of 12.66amps.

In your present setup you are drawing 13.95amps from a supply that originaly had only the 7.58amps asked of it. That makes a whopping 45% increase in demand.

If the Vmax Alternator and Votage regulator were supplying just enough to run the lights and charge the battery in it's stock setup, then you are in the poo.

I still think that a change to a Single 55/65 Headlamp and LEDs in the other lights would solve the issue with the least expense.


By the way, nice picture, nice trike.

[titusni]

Stock Bike:-
headlamp 55watt + Pilot 5 + Tail 10 + Brake 21 (assuming you would be holding the brake when standing still.

This totals 91watts which equals 7.58amps current draw


According to Mr Haynes, for stock US V-Max:

Headlamp 55 + Pilot 16 (2 x 8w) + Tail 16 (2 x 8W) + Brake 54 (2 x 27). Total: 141w = 11.75amps


Trike built from said bike:-

Headlamp 2 x 55 = 110 watts
Pilot 2 x 5 = 10
Tail 2 x 10 = 20
Side 2 x 10 = 20
Reg Plate 5
Brake 2 x 21 = 42

That totals:- 207 watts which equals 17.25amps current draw


A few revisions as no pilot, tails/brake are 2 x 21/5 + 1 x 25/8, reg plate is handled by 3rd tail/brake.

Headlamp 2 x 55 = 110 watts
Tail 2 x 5 + 1 x 8 = 18
Side 2 x 5 = 10
Brake 2 x 21 + 1 x 25 = 67

Total: 205w = 17.09amps


Reducing headlamps to 35 watts each saves a total of 40 watts
which equals a saving of 3.3amps


Based on above figures and changing the bulbs to 35/35W I'm currently drawing a total of 165W, 13.75amps.


Changing to a sigle 55/65 headlamp would have saved 55 watts or 4.58amps


This would take me down to 150w, 12.5amps.


Further savings would be made by changing to the elusive LEDs


Indeed - changing the 2 21/5W tail/brake bulbs to LEDs would save me 52w, 4.34amps - doing this and keeping the 2 x 35/35W headlights would bring me down to 113w/9.42amps - below the stock bike's 11.75amps.

However I've not found any LED replacements that are both suitable and legal :-(


In your present setup you are drawing 13.95amps from a supply that originaly had only the 7.58amps asked of it. That makes a whopping 45% increase in demand.


Presently drawing 13.75amps compared to the original 11.75amps.......only a 17% increase.


If the Vmax Alternator and Votage regulator were supplying just enough to run the lights and charge the battery in it's stock setup, then you are in the poo.

I still think that a change to a Single 55/65 Headlamp and LEDs in the other lights would solve the issue with the least expense.


I'd like to keep the dual headlamps is possible. LED tail/brake is the way I'd like to go but involves bitting the bullet and fitting illegal bulb replacements (its not an issue of brightness - I have found LEDs brighter than the filament bulbs).


By the way, nice picture, nice trike.

Thanks. I've made a few minor visual changes to it recently (stainless rad guard, mini flyscreen)......, must remember to put up better pics.

[Mad Dog]

I based it around a "generic" bike, without knowing your exact details.

However, it seems you are drawing just enough current over the charging system's capabilities to cause the problems.

I still think a single headlamp with LEDs would be the best option.

Have you tried leaving one of the headlamps unplugged and just having a 55/60 in the other as a test?

[titusni]

I still think a single headlamp with LEDs would be the best option.


I agree - its just my vain-ness stopped my switching back to a single headlight, lol

The ideal replacement for the 2 main tail/brake lights would be the 2" 50 LED clusters at "http://www.performancemotorcycleparts.com/lighting_pages/clear_rear_lights.htm"
with the 1157 flylead connector (as my bulbs sockets are side mounted).

My concern about "non-legal" LEDs is that either police or insurance companies could pick up on them - imagine having an accident where other person says "I didn't see him brake" - plod has a look at the brake unit and spots the LEDs..........no E-mark, therefore not legal - either plod or the other person's insurance company uses that to point the finger or blame and/or my insurance company uses it to claim something like "contributory negligance" so they can get out of paying.


Have you tried leaving one of the headlamps unplugged and just having a 55/60 in the other as a test?

I did that a while ago and it seemed to idle fine - though then again my current setup seemed to idle fine at first as well.