Frame tubing

[madpigpunk]

This thread has been on and off for ages but would like to know correct grades of tube to build a safe hardtail frame.i know cds is best and my local pipe centre sell 1 inch od cds pipe but is this suitable. also if using erw what grades wall thickness etc. :D Im making up a jig at the moment (check out chopper builders handbook for plans ).Will only be tacking up the frame as i dont trust welds at 100 mph plus so will get a proffesional to weld it up
Paul B

[Blackjack]

Well there's a big clue in the fact that your local PIPE center sells CDS.......

What you want is tube, what they probably stock is CDS 1. What you need is CDS 2. For preference and a little more money CFS 3 is generally better. Most steel stockholders can order this in for you at around the £50 for about 6 metres.

1" O/D is pretty meaningless unless you know the wall thickness of the tube, but a typical rigid will use 1/8" (or 10 gauge) wall tube.

Presumably, if you're getting the jig info off of Gary's site then your building a Harley frame? If you delve a little deeper into the site then you'll find the O/D and wall thickness of tube that he reccommends stated in several places. But the O/D is 1.25". 1.25" O/D 12 gauge wall tube has the same tensile strength as 1" O/D 10 gauge but is about 30% stiffer in bending by the way.

If you're going to use ERW (which I don't) then PROBABLY ERW 3 is the grade to plump for. ERW 1 is basically plasticine and bends really easily, which isn't really a desirable property in a motorcycle frame I think. ERW 5 is ridiculously hard and tends to tear rather than bend on a radial arm compression bender, so god alone knows what would happen if you tried it in one of those hydraulic push through benders you get from Machine Mart.

Talking of benders, how were you planning on bending this tube???

If you want a little more clarity about actual sizes and wall thicknesses, then a bit more information about what, exactly, you're planning on building a frame for would be useful.......................................

[madpigpunk]

frame is gonna be for a 600 bandit chop.I know the jig plans are for harleys but with a mix of the designs on the handbook and chopper web an adjustable jig for most engine sizes can be knocked up.Not using the frame plans from the handbook just the guides for the jig.I used the term pipe deliberately to make sure it wasnt suitable.Read a lot of your stuff on other sites blackjack and respect your views.especially loved the advice to all the people trying to stick weld frames from gas pipe etc lol.Any idea where to get hold of cds tube as you rightly stated the pipe i was talking about was cds 1 and i bought 6 metres of it just to practice notching and welding simply cos it was cheap £20 for a six metre length.Figured better to mess up the cheap stuff than cds tube.Using a hydraulic bender for the frame but am a plumber by trade so got access to several different ways of bending
Paul B

[dracken1]

some of those big hilmor conduit benders do a good job. better if you can get steel guides rather than ali ones as ali can spread under the strain.

i've given up with my local steel holder as far as cds goes. i pay a little bit more and get it through a local blacksmith. he knows the difference in the grades, more so than the main steel holder does (dyfed steel)

[weldy]

yay ...blacksmiths rule .......................





















did i mention im a blacksmith :D :D


matt

[Tom-madbiker]

nowt wrong wiv stick welders ive made two frames using one no probs i have a mig too tho if i need it for thin stuff :D

[Blackjack]

Basically, Tom, it goes like this....

Question: "Can I weld my frame with a stick welder?"

Answer: "No"

Question: "Why not? Tom, Dick and Harry weld their frames with a stick."

Answer: "If you're such a good stick welder how come you had to ask the question? The answer is no BECAUSE you had to ask......"

Madpigpunk, you might want to look at this pic....

Bandit engined rigid (http://groups.msn.com/HondaChoppers/blackjacksprojects.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=53)

That's got 1.25" frame rails and 1.75" centre post and top tube.

[madpigpunk]

Thats more or less exactly what i want to achieve.But with two outer tubes instead of single seat post.Is there anyone on here that can build one if so how much
Paul B

[Mad Dog]

Thats more or less exactly what i want to achieve.But with two outer tubes instead of single seat post.Is there anyone on here that can build one if so how much
Paul B

I have only just noticed you are in the Medway Towns.

There is a local frame builder who does exactly what you are looking for.

He don't advertise, but he does an awful lot of work. I can put you in touch.

[RebuiltYorkie]

Basically, Tom, it goes like this....

Question: "Can I weld my frame with a stick welder?"

Answer: "No"

Question: "Why not? Tom, Dick and Harry weld their frames with a stick."

Answer: "If you're such a good stick welder how come you had to ask the question? The answer is no BECAUSE you had to ask......"

Madpigpunk, you might want to look at this pic....

Bandit engined rigid (http://groups.msn.com/HondaChoppers/blackjacksprojects.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=53)

That's got 1.25" frame rails and 1.75" centre post and top tube.

Blacjack
could you make a frame up to fit a jap engine (Flat four GL1000) I am interested in making anothe Trike out of a bike I just picked up; this time I want a chop hardtail! I can't weld. :( Where are you based?
I can carve wood, turnwood an' good at it I just don't wanna wooden trike :D

[Blackjack]

Thats more or less exactly what i want to achieve.But with two outer tubes instead of single seat post.Is there anyone on here that can build one if so how much
Paul B

That actually belongs to a guy called Nick in the Kent NCC. Interestingly enough it's actually on their website in it's finished form (Nuovalora lowrider or something like that). As for is there anyone on here who could build something like that, there might have been a bit of a clue in that the link was to an album entitled "Blackjack's projects". A further clue might be found on the NCC website where it says "thanks to Blackjack's.." in the accompanying text. Just to clinch it for you, my day job is building motorcycle frames (well that and being sarcastic!). And my new E-mail is up and running by the way...........

Rebuilt Yorkie,

I'm in Bristol. Are we talking about a rigid trike frame here? I can do those, but I'm not madly keen on it as the damn things take up so much space in the workshop. However given that I'm...

A/. Still recovering from my accident and that is making me really slow at the moment.

and

B/. Still sorting out my new workshop, which is taking ages (see A/.)

if you're not in a mad rush then send me an E-mail with an outline of what you're after and we'll have a chat about it.

[RebuiltYorkie]

Blackjack
I hope you mend well, an quick! I am in middle of closing my woodcarving shop down; due to our pending move to Scotland. So I am not in a great rush. It will be a bit hectic to start having it made now! take it easy, catch you nearer the time!

Rebuilt

[Tom-madbiker]

Basically, Tom, it goes like this....

Question: "Can I weld my frame with a stick welder?"

Answer: "No"

Question: "Why not? Tom, Dick and Harry weld their frames with a stick."

Answer: "If you're such a good stick welder how come you had to ask the question? The answer is no BECAUSE you had to ask......"

Madpigpunk, you might want to look at this pic....

Bandit engined rigid (http://groups.msn.com/HondaChoppers/blackjacksprojects.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=53)

That's got 1.25" frame rails and 1.75" centre post and top tube.

i was not asking i was saying that i have used a stick welder basically it gives better penetration and a neater weld than a mig (unless the mig is a large professional one not the crap you buy at the local diy store) it is cheaper to run cos you dont need the gas (also easier to change to stainless mode) and they are cheaper to buy but they do require a little more skill to use (basically a monkey could use a mig just point an squirt) but i do have a mig if i need it for thin sheet basically a well equipped work shop should have both in my opinion :)

[madpigpunk]

I really didnt want to start this one
Paul B

[Blackjack]

i was not asking i was saying that i have used a stick welder basically it gives better penetration and a neater weld than a mig (unless the mig is a large professional one not the crap you buy at the local diy store) it is cheaper to run cos you dont need the gas (also easier to change to stainless mode) and they are cheaper to buy but they do require a little more skill to use (basically a monkey could use a mig just point an squirt) but i do have a mig if i need it for thin sheet basically a well equipped work shop should have both in my opinion :)

We're basically singing from the same hymn sheet here. What Madpigpunk was referring to was the way I've bitten the head off of a few people over this issue! As you said, arc welding a frame safely takes a degree of skill. My basic point is that if the guy who wants to do it needs to ask if its OK, then he doesn't have the necessary skill or confidence. If on the other hand the hypothetical guy has been stick welding for 20 years and just wants some pointers then there's a fairly good chance that he can do it. Unless of course he's a pipewelder! :)

As for your comments about MIG, you can get crap arc welders too you know. I've got a 180 amp single phase Butters MIG, and it's quite lovely to work with despite me having been using it for 20 odd years. For welding frames up, my opinion is that MIG is hard to beat as long as you know what you're doing with it. I preheat all my welds on a frame and am careful about joint preparation.

Fairly often I get asked how I get such tidy MIG welds, and when I explain the usual reply is "I couldn't be bothered with all that!". There is more to it than point and squirt (as I'm sure you know) and done properly a MIG welded frame will take at least as much of a battering as a TIG welded one, if not more.

For non ferrous stuff I've got a 300 amp BOC TIG that weighs over half a ton. Apparently you can stick weld with it, but I never felt the need......

[Tom-madbiker]

yes i know that you can get crap arc welders my dad has one and it usually cuts out after about 12" of weld coz it overheats. by the way my ARC welder is actually a 130A dc TIG set but i am not set up to do TIG and have never tried it wouldent mind learning tho. Yes i know that there is more to MIG than point and squirt but i was on me soapbox sorry about that :)

[dracken1]

i love using tig.
but i always mig my trike frames.

[Sir Ewok]

Did a bit of TIG when I was a welders mate. Not very intresting except it was in Carlsberg Brewery while it was being built. I do know some peeps who can organize a piss-up in a brewery.
Wouldn't mind learning to TIG properly myself.

[Big Pete]

Speaking as a stress engineer (aerospace/nuclear/ etc) you can make a frame out of cheese if you design it properly.

erw tube works fine (and is what most factory frames are made of), but make sure you dont get stuff from the start of the run as thats where the biggest risk of seam failure is. If you look inside the tube you can usually see the quality of the seam.

Bigger diameter tube with thin walls is better than small stuff with thick walls every time. The bending stiffness of round tube is (pi/64)*D^4-d^4) capital D=OD, small d = ID. For a given size tube, the quality of the steel makes very little difference to the flexibility of the tube. Higher grade steel means it can be bent further and still recover, but you dont want a flexible frame do you? BTW, bent tube leaves a lot to be desired in terms of stiffness, keep them straight if you can.

The Tony Foale (tonyfoale.com IIRC) frame design book is excellent if you are planning to build one yourself, it also gives lots of advice on things like suspension design and frame geometry.

In terms of the frame breaking, the welds will go first (doesnt matter how they got there), especially fillet welds, and will fail in fatigue in the long run. There is a theoretical risk with seamed tube that the seam will fail in torsion or under buckling loads, but if your frame gets to point where thats a risk then your biggest worry is going to be surviving the crash.

[dracken1]

i agree with much of what you say about erw tubing being used on factory frames.
but. factory frames have rear suspension and short 20 deg raked front ends.
when you have a stretched rigid frame. with a long front end then cds must give more piece of mind. as more stress is put on a rigid frame with long forks than a factory one.
in my opinion that is ;)

[madpigpunk]

I started this thread cos i had a dream of building my own way out hardtail frame.The dream is still there and one day i will do it,but on reflection im gonna have one made for me.By the time you have brought your tube,made a jig etc unless you intend to make quite a few frames the cost is almost as much as having one made.Also SAFETY lets not put another nail in the coffin of custom biking dont want to see anyone on their arse chewing tarmac.If your not sure about your welding and geometry take it to the pros and stay alive.One day i will build that frame but for now ill practice my welding by welding on all the brackets and stuff needed that way i still got my own stamp on the bike.Life is precious treat it that way
Ride Safe Paul B
PS by my reckoning and by veiwer statistics in about a years time there is gonna be a **** load of unfinished projects for sale when people realise its not as easy as the telly makes it look, just a thought

[Blackjack]

Big Pete said,

Speaking as a stress engineer (aerospace/nuclear/ etc) you can make a frame out of cheese if you design it properly.

True, but for two things. Firstly most people aren't actually frame builders and therefore don't have a clue about what you mean by design. And secondly and more importantly we're mostly talking about rigid frame, often with long unsupported runs of tube (not a good thing), so it's pretty well designed already so its more a case of choosing the best material to build the design out of than a case of designing a frame to be made out of the cheapest material possible

erw tube works fine (and is what most factory frames are made of), but make sure you dont get stuff from the start of the run as thats where the biggest risk of seam failure is. If you look inside the tube you can usually see the quality of the seam.

Is this ERW 1,2,3,4,or 5? Many steel stockholders aren't even aware that there is a difference, let alone what it is. Usually you get ERW 3 (which is about your best bet), but ERW 1 is quite popular with furniture manufacturers as it can be bent round more or less anything. ERW 5 will tear rather than bend most of the time. And whilst many modern frames are made from ERW they are production frames and get quite a lot of development prior to going in to production, and they require some really ugly and carefully designed gussets to get a decent fatigue life. Not quite the same thing as nailing a one off together in the shed.

Bigger diameter tube with thin walls is better than small stuff with thick walls every time. The bending stiffness of round tube is (pi/64)*D^4-d^4) capital D=OD, small d = ID. For a given size tube, the quality of the steel makes very little difference to the flexibility of the tube. Higher grade steel means it can be bent further and still recover, but you dont want a flexible frame do you? BTW, bent tube leaves a lot to be desired in terms of stiffness, keep them straight if you can.

You have to go careful here, if the wall is too thin there is a danger of it denting which is going to ruin the structural integrity. 50mm diameter with a 0.5mm wall is stiff as you like, but if you subject a dented piece to a bending load is going to collapse very quickly indeed. And it affects the compression strength badly as well. And don't forget that (pi/64)*D^4-d^4 still means that a thicker wall IS stiffer for a given OD

The Tony Foale (tonyfoale.com IIRC) frame design book is excellent if you are planning to build one yourself, it also gives lots of advice on things like suspension design and frame geometry.

While it's interesting from an engineering point of view, Tony Foale's book isn't a lot of use to the first time chop frame builder, mostly because the bits that apply to the job at hand are buried in amongst the rest of it. Always seems more concerned about building a better mouse trap than building a good conventional one to me.

In terms of the frame breaking, the welds will go first (doesnt matter how they got there), especially fillet welds, and will fail in fatigue in the long run. There is a theoretical risk with seamed tube that the seam will fail in torsion or under buckling loads, but if your frame gets to point where thats a risk then your biggest worry is going to be surviving the crash.

Errrrrrrr, NO. In terms of frames breaking the two most common causes for it are either vibration induced failures coupled to resonance with engine vibrations, or incorrectly designed gusseting causing localised stresses instaed of dissipating them (this is excluding crash related failures, though you have to ask if the crash caused the break, or did the break cause the crash). And ERW is more prone to failure in either of these situations than CFS. You do get welds that fall apart but this need never happen again if you cut the hands off the guy who welded it up and is more of a welding issue than a material choice issue.

[Big Pete]

Big Pete said,

Speaking as a stress engineer (aerospace/nuclear/ etc) you can make a frame out of cheese if you design it properly.

True, but for two things. Firstly most people aren't actually frame builders and therefore don't have a clue about what you mean by design. And secondly and more importantly we're mostly talking about rigid frame, often with long unsupported runs of tube (not a good thing), so it's pretty well designed already so its more a case of choosing the best material to build the design out of than a case of designing a frame to be made out of the cheapest material possible

Fair point, is now a good time to mention triangles? LOL

erw tube works fine (and is what most factory frames are made of), but make sure you dont get stuff from the start of the run as thats where the biggest risk of seam failure is. If you look inside the tube you can usually see the quality of the seam.

Is this ERW 1,2,3,4,or 5? Many steel stockholders aren't even aware that there is a difference, let alone what it is. Usually you get ERW 3 (which is about your best bet), but ERW 1 is quite popular with furniture manufacturers as it can be bent round more or less anything. ERW 5 will tear rather than bend most of the time. And whilst many modern frames are made from ERW they are production frames and get quite a lot of development prior to going in to production, and they require some really ugly and carefully designed gussets to get a decent fatigue life. Not quite the same thing as nailing a one off together in the shed.

When I buy tube I ask for a min. yield of 180MPa, furniture stuff is usually about 100MPA yield so I would guess its prolly ERW3. Vehicles usually work on infinte fatigue life due to the random nature of the load cycle, frame gussets improve the frames stiffness, but can reduce the fatigue life because of the welds.

Bigger diameter tube with thin walls is better than small stuff with thick walls every time. The bending stiffness of round tube is (pi/64)*D^4-d^4) capital D=OD, small d = ID. For a given size tube, the quality of the steel makes very little difference to the flexibility of the tube. Higher grade steel means it can be bent further and still recover, but you dont want a flexible frame do you? BTW, bent tube leaves a lot to be desired in terms of stiffness, keep them straight if you can.

You have to go careful here, if the wall is too thin there is a danger of it denting which is going to ruin the structural integrity. 50mm diameter with a 0.5mm wall is stiff as you like, but if you subject a dented piece to a bending load is going to collapse very quickly indeed. And it affects the compression strength badly as well. And don't forget that (pi/64)*D^4-d^4 still means that a thicker wall IS stiffer for a given OD

True enough, you do need to locally reinforce large thin wall tube if you are going to apply point loads, and, if its very thin it does need to be looked after. True that thicker wall is stiffer for the same OD, but why not use a bigger OD?, more stiffness, keep the wall at 1.6 or 2 mm so its not too fragile and its still easy to weld, and it keeps the weight of the frame down.

The Tony Foale (tonyfoale.com IIRC) frame design book is excellent if you are planning to build one yourself, it also gives lots of advice on things like suspension design and frame geometry.

While it's interesting from an engineering point of view, Tony Foale's book isn't a lot of use to the first time chop frame builder, mostly because the bits that apply to the job at hand are buried in amongst the rest of it. Always seems more concerned about building a better mouse trap than building a good conventional one to me.

Each to his own, I found it pretty usefull.

In terms of the frame breaking, the welds will go first (doesnt matter how they got there), especially fillet welds, and will fail in fatigue in the long run. There is a theoretical risk with seamed tube that the seam will fail in torsion or under buckling loads, but if your frame gets to point where thats a risk then your biggest worry is going to be surviving the crash.

Errrrrrrr, NO. In terms of frames breaking the two most common causes for it are either vibration induced failures coupled to resonance with engine vibrations, or incorrectly designed gusseting causing localised stresses instaed of dissipating them (this is excluding crash related failures, though you have to ask if the crash caused the break, or did the break cause the crash). And ERW is more prone to failure in either of these situations than CFS. You do get welds that fall apart but this need never happen again if you cut the hands off the guy who welded it up and is more of a welding issue than a material choice issue.

Vibration failure, either from the road or from the engine is a fatigue issue, technically its call High Cycle Fatigue, usually classed in excess of 10 million cycles (which doesnt take very long if its engine induced), its true enough that if the design is wrong its going to fail, but thats true whatever you build your frame from. I wasnt talkin about the weld itself breaking (assuming a competent welder (btw, I like your poor weld elimination technique, I might use that on a few people I know)), fatigue usually causes a failure at the toe of a fillet weld (in the sizes we are talking about) in the heat affected zone, where all the good properties of your high quality steel have been destroyed by welding, BS7608 is the guide to fatigue assessment of welded steel structures, and it doesnt matter what grade of steel you start with, its the weld that matters.

I didnt intend to come across as rubbishing your work (or advice BTW), I `ve seen the stuff you build and its very nice indeed, however, a lot of the (well designed) custom frames I`ve seen have been massively over engineered in this respect (3mm wall handlebars for example) and its money that could be spent elsewhere.

[Blackjack]

Pete,

There's 2 reasons for the 3mm wall bars. First one is that you get a cleaner looking bend with a compression bender, and seeing as mandrel benders are hugely more expensive then that's not really an option for the kind of volume involved.

Second reason is that when you drop the thing in the car park the bars don't bend, thus preserving your paint job! :)

Similar reasoning is applied to the OD of the tubes. To get the look required you need a certain OD, so the question becomes how thick a wall do I need to make that work?

Mostly we're reading from the same hymn sheet here, and any dispute is most likely due to me approaching the problem from a styling point of view, whilst you seem to be treating it as a pure engineering question.

My tube of choice, CFS 3, (though I'd use CFS 5 if it was more available) isn't an "exotic" steel. It needs no special technique or filler rod to weld. The reason for choosing it is basically two fold. First as its basically an extrusion the mechanical properties are consistent all the way through and around the tube, which isn't true of ERW as that tends to be harder where the seam is (which is basically why is not permitted for rollover bars by the RAC blue book). Secondly the standard for CFS is tighter than for either ERW or CDS I'm led to believe (I don't like CDS much either!!) and so it behaves the way I expect it to behave.

Yanks use DOM, which is basically ERW resized by drawing it over a mandrel, part of the point of this is to relieve the internal stresses caused by the process of making ERW.

If I've got all the above correct, consider the current fashion for using headstock gussets that lie on a plane passing through the centerline of both tubes, as opposed to using two gussets that are tangental to the tubes (and don't even get me started on the fact that these are single downtube frames!). Sometimes you're just up against piss poor design often because of the dictates of fashion.

Given the number of people out there who want to build a "radical" frame with swoopy bits, really poor gusset design, and a single down tube, I think I'm justified in suggesting they don't use ERW as they don't usually take kindly to be told they ought to learn to walk before they try running. So that's where I'm coming from.

Incidentally, did you see that "Race Car" bike on "American Chopper"? Single down tube with a big radius curve in it? when they showed a head on shot of the frame after it had been chromed you could clearly see that the down tube had been bumped on a bender and not formed on a ring roller. Now I don't know about you, but if I was being charged £75,000 for a bike I'd be a bit pissed off about that!

Thanks for the kind words about my stuff by the way! :)

[Big Pete]

AAh yes, the dictates of fashion, :rolleyes: some frames should really be made from 4" steam pipe. I suppose that when a single tube frame with centerline gussets is combined with a 40 degree rake angle any handling deficiencies due to frame flexing become irrelevant.

Unfortunately I dont get Discovery, so havent seen any of the American Chopper stuff, from what I hear, it should be on Comedy Central at times. That sort of detail on that pricey a machine is unforgiveable, especially as you coul get the tube bent in a heavy fab shop for (tops) £150. You have to wonder if the frame was NDT`ed after chroming, or if the chromers were told that hydrogen embrittlement was unacceptable.

[addjunkie]

So have I understood this correctly, as i dont want to use pipe for next trike back end, (though it was sched 40), and free. However i do agreee with the earlier discouragement of can i weld my wot ever with this that or a box of matches. I spoke to one of the kit car bods and he offered me wish bones made from as he described it 18 gauge 22m erw

CFS 2 is more acuratley manufacutured than both cds and erw, and there for bends more uniformly, though requires more force to bend it. But is the dogs bollocks for frames as they say. wot about reynolds 531 or some thing, I seem to rememeber being discussed all those years ago when i was an apprentice.

My addition to this discussion is where do i buy a cheap (and when i say cheap I mean i want some money to buy the donor bike.) Tube bender. I know i can get the hydraulic pipe job for about a hundred quid, but I want to be able to get dies for the tube i choose, not only for imperial pipe. Dont want any deformed corners. and i dont want to spend much more than 100 quid.

right ill now go back to my own deformed corner in the pub. :rolleyes:

[Blackjack]

So have I understood this correctly, as i dont want to use pipe for next trike back end, (though it was sched 40), and free. However i do agreee with the earlier discouragement of can i weld my wot ever with this that or a box of matches. I spoke to one of the kit car bods and he offered me wish bones made from as he described it 18 gauge 22m erw

Ahhh. schedule 40. Horizontal runs to be supported every 18". And that's in a static situation when it's only full of water.........

Properly designed wishbones are only ever in tension or compression and 18 gauge 22mm OD ERW is a fairly normal choice for something like a Seven replica incidentally The trouble is that things like seven replicas are space frames and quite often the whole thing is built out of something like 25mm box section with a 1.5mm wall(unless of course it's a Dutton.....) but this is an entirely different animal from a motorcycle frame.

CFS 2 is more acuratley manufacutured than both cds and erw, and there for bends more uniformly, though requires more force to bend it. But is the dogs bollocks for frames as they say. wot about reynolds 531 or some thing, I seem to rememeber being discussed all those years ago when i was an apprentice.

531 is chrome manganese. That is steel with traces of chrome and manganese added, much like chrome moly tube. It weighs the same as ordinary steel, but as it is quite a bit harder you can use extremely thin wall tube. To take advantage of this design of joints and stiffening becomes even more critical, it's a real pain to bend, picky as hell about being over heated, and no two sources seem to agree on welding techniques and whether or not it should be normalised after welding. Basically 531 is fraught with even more potential pitfalls, so I'd avoid it like the plague.

My addition to this discussion is where do i buy a cheap (and when i say cheap I mean i want some money to buy the donor bike.) Tube bender. I know i can get the hydraulic pipe job for about a hundred quid, but I want to be able to get dies for the tube I choose, not only for imperial pipe. Dont want any deformed corners. and i dont want to spend much more than 100 quid.

You can get tube sized formers for conduit benders, and I have seen the benders in our local Free Ads paper for as little as £40. Though one former and one guide is going to take that over a ton unless yoiu've got access to a mill and a lathe to make your own

right ill now go back to my own deformed corner in the pub. :rolleyes:

Mines a double Jack Daniel's with nothing in it (and that includes ice!).

[madpigpunk]

Schedule 40 was the tube i got hold of to practice on from the local pipline centre is this a deffinate no no for frames?

[Blackjack]

Schedule 40 was the tube i got hold of to practice on from the local pipline centre is this a deffinate no no for frames?

As Big Pete said earlier you can design a frame to be made out of cheese, but if your talking about building a fairly traditional rigid, I'd stay away from schedule 40.

And chesse.

[Sir Ewok]

As Big Pete said earlier you can design a frame to be made out of cheese, but if your talking about building a fairly traditional rigid, I'd stay away from schedule 40.

And cheese.

Shoite, there goes my Mickey Mouse trike..... :(