Awful handling trike (help!!)

[dubmeister]

As the title says really need help to figure out why my trike feels so bloody awful when you ride it
Best way i can describe how it feels is that the suspension is too hard and the wheel is buckled (wheel is okay and suspension is as soft as possible) so the trike feels like it is shaking its head when you ride in a straight line
Or to put it in car terms its like you have a puncture or soft tyre and your power steering is only half working)

Is this just how trikes feel

The trike is a hardtail z1300 kawasaki running a reliant back axle with 15" porsche wheels fitted with 295/50/15 tyres

Front end is pretty much standard 91 zxr 750 except the forks have been lengthened by 5inches (headstock angle is 28 degrees as far as i can tell )
120 /70/17 tyre fitted
Would a 120 /60 /17 help by having a lower profile and having a slightly bigger footprint

New head bearings fitted and correctly set

Wheelbase is roughly 62" or 157 cms

Got huge wide bars on too (about 3 1/2 to 4 ft)

Will fitting a damper help ? or will it just cover up the cause

Tyre pressures in the back tyres are 15 psi and fronts have been tried at 20 25 30 psi but with little difference

Am i looking for a problem that doesn't exist and is it just that it feels shit because i've never ridden a trike before and am a complete bottling mingepiece

All help greatfully accepted
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/20052008108.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/stumpyandtrikefuchs019.jpg

[Borg]

is it a round profile front tyre ?

[shaggy696969]

Hard tail and low profile rear tyres is a really bad combination, it will shake your fillings out. Steering weave is common normally sorted with a steering damper a squarer profile tyre and lowering the rear tyre pressures. So IMHO you need smaller diameter wheels with a taller profile tyres on the rear flash isn't always best, that will make the ride more bearable and will help to prevent feeling every grain of dirt on the road through your spine. Fit a steering damper, and to improve the steering weight have the bars pull back more, beach bars look cool on the beach naff elsewhere and your steering will be really heavy like that. Just a few observations, I thought you sorted this after your first thread ........

[dubmeister]

Cheers for the replys
Shaggy nope didnt get it sorted after the first thread coz the handling issues went on the back burner coz the camchain tensioner fucked up and took out all the valves so had to buy another motor and fit it
The rear tyres fitted are not the ones in the pictures (can't get any decent pics on the pc from my phone) the tyres are fairly tall when you consider they are 295/50s so the sidewall is 150mm 6") tall and they are running 15psi
Only fitted the beach bars to get extra leverage to see if it helped which it did but not enough , i fancy a set of the v style pull back bars but the 7/8" ones cost loads as most are to fit 1" switchgear .
Need to keep any remedies to a minimum cost wise as i work for Pirelli (make tyres for porsche,rangerover ,landrover,maserati,and any other high performance cars you can think of) and as you can imagine our tyres aint in demand at the moment and i have just had my working week halved so on half wages:(

[dubmeister]

Oops sorry borg
No its more triangular than i would like hence the question whether a 120/60 would be better
Does anyone do a square profile 120 /17 tyre? thinking of squaremasters or roadrunners and any other old school tyres

[Borg]

Yer I would try a new square section, V shaped tend to make the forks bounce as steering is totally different forces on a trike to a bike. If one folk dips a bit it will skip all over the place

[dubmeister]

This is the trike as of today ,give you an idea of tyre sizes etc
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/04012009380.jpg

[Pigpen]

Hope I'm not talking complete bollocks here, but do you have enough castor angle. Looking at the pics its hard to tell but it appears that it's almost zero.
However I've never built a frame so what do I know.

[dubmeister]

Pig pen
I dont think your talking bollocks as i think headstock angle (standard 28 degrees) rake ,trail etc are not ideal for a trike however it should work better than it does because it has been a trike for at least 12 years that i know of

All i have done since i bought it is change the back wheels from 14's to 15's but kept the overall radius almost the same by fitting 295/50/15s as the sidewall of the tyre is the only suspension i have on the back
The front end is zxr 750 which has been modified to replicate the front end we took out as near as possible ie forks are same length yoke offset the same ,however the front wheel was a xs650 wheel with a avon speedmaster 2 square section 90/90/19 tyre and horrible pull back ape stylee bars

So to recap
Next for me is a square section skinny as possible tyre and a set of v stylee pull back bars and a steering damper
Think the pull back bars will definately help ,thinking similar idea to the longer a spanner the less effort it takes to tighten a nut so longer and more pull back on the bars less effort to turn (bit like the tiller bar on a boat rudder)

Feel free to jump in and tell me this is wrong if you think so as i am more than willing to listen to the vast amount of knowledge on here although i may not be too keen when people tell me to buy a new set of yokes with built in offset for £500
Think budget remedies here people :D

[minxy]

Has it always done this?

I had an XJ trike which shook it's head violently if you so much as thought about taking one hand off the bars. Turns out the frame wasnt quite straight! The headshaking was managed with 2 steering dampers but not ideal by far. Dont mean to scare ya eh :thumbd:

[dubmeister]

Don't know if it's always done it but i got 7 old mots with it and they all had a few miles more on each one so it's been getting used every year
Have measured front wheel to rear axle both sides and it all seems ok and straight no sign of damage or flaky paint or stress cracks round the headstock
Back axle seems straight enuf ,checked as best we can with one of those lazer chain alignment tools
Got a set of horrible bars that are pullbacks somewhere in the garage so will try them when i manage to get hold of a square section front tyre,struggling at the moment though coz they obviously keep them stored somewhere with all the hens teeth and rocking horse shit
The trike had sat for a couple of years before i bought it because the guy i bought it off managed to fall off a ladder and damage his spine
The trike had seized front calipers ,perished tyre,horrible steel wide yokes and a set of xs650 forks that were starting to pit badly so that is why we chose to stick a complete front end in out of the zxr (and i already had it for a streetfighter project) so cant put it back to the way it was when i got it

Tried drackens shop for bars but nothing on there like i need any other places to try ?

[dubmeister]

This was the trike when i bought it and as you can see it sits the same before and after the front forks where changed add about an inch to the length of the forks coz its strapped down (bars are different though)
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/21042008050.jpg

[droid]

That trike looks like the back wheels are too big/wide.

I seem to recall seeing an Ogri cartoon where Malcolm made himself a trike with tractor wheels at the back. When he set off the front pivoted round and he shot off like one of those pencil/cotton reel/elastic band toys you get.

Could you be having a similar (but not so spectacular) problem?

Physics never was my strong point:o

[dubmeister]

It's possible the wheels could be too big but it's ran on wide wheels for a loooong time it only seems to be shit since i've changed the front end but i never rode it before i changed everything so can't tell how much i've changed it
Maybe the previous owners just had more experience of trikes or just had bigger balls
Can't go any smaller on the wheels and tyres because if i do i have no ground clearence coz the exhaust collector pipes scrape on the ground

[v8_trike]

Looks to me like the original tyre was a flatter section (as others have said) also looks lower at the front with the original forks, try dropping the forks through the yokes to roughly the position of the old front end and see if that helps (funny thing geometry)

Im only an hour away if you want me to have a look over it for you, (will travel for coffee! :rolleyes:)

[shaggy696969]

Looking at it even if the forks are of equal length when you changed them, you would have lost height by using Low Profile 17" front wheel, the one on the original trike pic looks like a 18" or 19" wheel and by dropping to a 17" with low profile tyre you are likely to have lost a good 3-4" in ride height if you still got the old front end offer it up and see the difference and that would make your steering heard angle much steeper and cause a lot of the problems your mentioning, I forgot about your engine probs good to hear its at least running again. PS if you still got the original Weller wheels and want rid ...... I could be interested as it looks like they don't have the 5 stud adaptors your using now and would fit my reliant axel.

[dubmeister]

Shaggy If you want the wheels there yours ,they came off the reliant back axle as you say they are 14s running torque twister tyres that are unfortunately fecked (cracked with sitting flat)
Had a better look at the headstock tonite and cant tell for certain but looks like its been altered slightly and braced too
The front forks were lengthened to take into account the discrepancy between the 17" and 19" wheels and low and tall profile tyres so the difference shouldnt be that much if any
I've got a standard z1300 front end in the garage in another trike frame but dont really want to use it as it has one caliper missing ,no mudguard,and a 110/80/18 normal profile tyre and doesnt look anything like so nice as the zxr one (forks are same length as zxr ones too) and speedo drive is electronic too
Cables would be too short as well

[dubmeister]

V8 trike
The standard front end only looks shorter coz its strapped down onto the trailer and we measured the front end and altered the zxr one to be the same ,cant shorten the front end or drop it thru the yokes coz the exhaust touches the ground all the time (we know this because i tried it )
Once i,ve decided on what front end etc is going in i may take you up on your offer of checking the trike over even if you only try it up the road and tell me whether or not it is shit or whether it just needs preload or damping on the forks etc done
Got a damper coming and on the look out for some other bars (all 1" fuckers tho :()whatever happened to the one inch bars that used to be 7/8 at the end
Fancy something like these
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/VBARS.jpg

[northernpesant]

i would try smaller thiner wheels on the back if you can borrow some for a day. with those size wheels i would exspect the trike to be as long as mine
(9-10Ft) and about 5ft wide. Smaller back wheels will make the rake appear slightly larger aswell. like i said borrow wheels its a cheap trial option.
you can take the exhausts off for a day and pick your roads.
Also mine was a hard tail ive given it 1.5 inches of movement on rear suspension and it improved handeling and ride.

[dubmeister]

Got a set of 8 " wide porsche fuch wheels to try 195/60/15
Or 215 /50/17 porsche cup2s
Or 245/45/17 ultima gtr kitcar wheels by image wheels
Or a pair of 295/25/22 porsche gemballa alloys but might struggle to get them under the mudguards:D
Reckon this trikes always had fairly wide tyres on though just going off the size of the rear mudguards(295/50/15s on now are by far the best looking:D)

[shaggy696969]

I reckon its going to be a problem with the front not the rear, try the steering damper then the bars if you manage to source some, I had mine made by a guy on american ebay cost was a bit pricey at £130 incl delivery but they are 1 1/2" down to 7/8" for levers cant thinkof his name but im sure a flick through will find him. The taller rim narrow sidewall in comparrison wil make the ride hard, Just for comparrison try the narrow porsche wheels see how that goes. after fitting damper .

[dubmeister]

Yeh i reckon its front end not rear
Mate i share the unit i have the trike in reckoned earlier on today he could make something suitable up handlebar wise if he used 7/8" solid bar for the ends
He's got a degree in engineering and has done a lot of the work on the trike (extending forks etc) so know i can trust his work

[John Hopkins]

mostly what shaggy said. just an observation but it looks as if all the weight is on the back, ok for wheelies but not much good for riding. if it wasn't built right in the first place you could be in for a lot of money. But what would I know? my experiance is on bikes and combis (sidecar).

John

[droid]

I think that the problem lies with the force needed to get the back wheels moving. The bigger or heavier the wheel, the more force is needed, and the lighter the front goes.

The only time I've seen wheels that big was on a VW trike about twice as long as yours. I'd agree that trying narrower/lighter rears would be a good idea.

This post does come with a 'crap at physics' caveat though.....:rolleyes:

[shaggy696969]

I think that the problem lies with the force needed to get the back wheels moving. The bigger or heavier the wheel, the more force is needed, and the lighter the front goes.

The only time I've seen wheels that big was on a VW trike about twice as long as yours. I'd agree that trying narrower/lighter rears would be a good idea.

This post does come with a 'crap at physics' caveat though.....:rolleyes:

Your forgetting Yoda's trike, ive seen plenty of big wheeled trikes which dnt have problems and they are short bike engined ones.

[dubmeister]

I've got to agree with shaggy on this one as i have seen numerous short arse big tyred trikes with a similar headstock angle etc in 100% ,bsh and websites
The wheels on the trike in the first photo are billet alloy with lightweight low profile tyres and wont weigh much more than 10kg a corner so should roll easy(wheels are image split rims and were £2200 without tyres when new:eek: ) and are smaller rolling radius than the ones on now i couldn't feel the difference
Theres at least a 100 to 120 bhp and a geared down back axle turning these wheels too
Got to be honest though the back brakes are shit because of the size of the back tyres but i will be fitting the rear discs and calipers of a mk3 golf if i get a few quid together(maybe nova discs)

Have come to the conclusion that the front end will probably end up coming out and try a standard z1300 in to see if its any better but gonna have to wait for bits (longer clutch cable etc ) its a voyager front end so its got multi adjustable high handlebars built into the top yoke which means i cant use normal bars and my wiring will probably be too short :(
Any other bikes use the same front brake calipers as a z1300 ? thinking gpz 1100 s etc (its a 83 model )
The z1300 front end is longer than the zxr but i can drop the forks thru the yokes easier
Its ground clearance i'm short of though coz of the way the downpipes join the mid pipe in a triangle rather than 3 horizontal

[droid]

Point taken shaggy, as I've hinted, me physics is crap.

Have you checked the engine mounts dubmeister?
I've heard of cases of loose ones shaking the front around.

[v8_trike]

I don't believe it is the width of the tyres, I started off with 155 x 70 x 13's on mine, now up to 365 x 50 x 15 and has not had any effect on the handling, steering damper will help (mine is from Audi 100 - works great!)

As for your handlebars, may be better to make some up to suit (you can always turn down some 7/8" ends in lathe to fit into 1" tube)

[droid]

I was on about the mass of the rear wheels, not the tyre width. But 10kg isn't that much, so I guess that idea's out the window.

It still looks very tail-heavy to me though.

[dubmeister]

I think the trike is nose heavy rather than tail heavy as the motor is a hell of a weight and is front heavy too ,if you draw a line thru the middle of the trike most of the weight would be towards the front
If i can rustle up enough scales i will try and do a corner weight test

[kammelryder]

As for your handlebars, may be better to make some up to suit (you can always turn down some 7/8" ends in lathe to fit into 1" tube)
quick and cheap tip for 1" bars to 7/8", GT550/750 clip on bars are solid and weld nicely into 1" tubing and are as cheap as chips. (and being solid have nice anti-vib properties too! :thumbu:)
FWIW fat rear tyres need a very strong front end, have you got a fork brace? the internal springs might need upgrading to progressive springs and heavier fork oil. I don't like steering dampers as they just mask your problem.
From a long time bodger.
PS apart from everything else, nice looking trike! worth persisting :thumbsu:

[biggus mickus]

Because if it does, then it's probably suffering from too much trail in the steering geometry.
This can also cause a wobbly/oscillation of the steering at low speeds as well.
My Wildstar trike was like this, 125mm of trail was too much. 50-75mm would've been better. I ended up with 40" wide handlebars to compensate!
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q25/chopheadmick/trike%20fabrication/cameraapril06044small.jpg
Of course, this requires either new yokes with a different offset, or some other system such as leading links or girders, neither of which could be considered cheap if you pay someone to do the work.
There is also the possibility that you have a wheel or tyre that isn't running true or is out of shape slightly/not seated correctly causing the problem.

Cheers, Big Mick.

[dubmeister]

Does the steering get heavy at speed ? wouldn't know coz it's so fucking awful below 30mph my heart couldn't stand going any faster ,below 30mph is like trying to ride an epileptic camel:D
Got no chance of buying any more yokes to alter trail because i am skint
I haven't got a fork brace on because i don't know of anyone who does them and i have never seen a zxr750 that needed one
I can wind the preload on the forks up so the forks barely move and the problem is worse so at the moment the fork preload is most of the way out to allow the forks to actually move and i haven't set the damping up other than leaving it in roughly the middle setting so hopefully this will allow the forks to absorb the bumps rather than it just skip about and making the head wagging problem i have worse
Got a brand new tyre fitted today (freebie too) so am going to refit the wheel tomorrow and see if it makes any difference although we have got two inches of snow :(
OOh good tip for the 7/8" into 1" bars coz i have a set of gpz 550 h1 bars somewhere
OHH and i already have 42" wide bars on so may have to narrow them slightly

[biggus mickus]

Are the wheels centered correctly on the hub? Some wheels are spigot mounted and some use tapered wheel nuts to center themselves. Do you have the correct nuts for the new wheels?

Cheers, Big Mick.:thumbu:

[Pigpen]

Still sounds to me like a castor problem. If you don't want to go down the new yokes route you could try dropping the back and raising the front. Don't suppose you could borrow things like larger front wheel, smaller rear wheels, longer forks, just to do a diagnosis.

[dubmeister]

Hi again
The wheels are on reliant to porsche adapters which have the centre bore of the wheel machined on it so that centres everything and the nuts are porsche radiused ones and match the wheel
Have tried a few different sizes of wheels and tyres on to no avail :(
Don't want to take the back wheels off unless it's absolutely necessary (don't think it is) coz the tyres were £200 and look spot on
Not sure what to do with the forks as some people recommend shorter forks ,others longer forks ,some say big tyres are okay ,some not
Anybody got a diagram to show how to work out caster ,trail ,rake etc so i can figure out exactly what is going on

[Pigpen]

You need to extend an imaginary line through the centre of your steering head bearings to the floor. The point on the floor where this line touches the floor needs to be behind the centre of the contact point between the tyre and the floor. The bigger the gap is the heavier and more directional the steering will be. The shorter it is the more unstable the steering becomes, to the point where,if you have a negative result the steering will be totally unstable and act like a shopping trolley.
Hope this all makes sense.

[dubmeister]

Cheers PigPen
It's along time since i worked anything out like that (last time i had a spondon with adjustable yokes) and remembered having to do what you said but also had it in my head to drop a line from the wheel spindle to the floor and run another line down the forks and measure the offset of the yokes
Gonna go to put the wheel in the trike shortly if i can get there ,its twenty miles away in Scotland and the roads are kind of snowy ,icy,slushy

[Pigpen]

Just cobbled this drawing up for you. Hope it helps. As you can see the relationship between castor angle, trail, fork length and steering head angle is just basic trigonometry.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm140/steve123497/100_1561.jpg

[dubmeister]

At a guess after looking at photos i reckon my measurement is 0 thats a big fat zero so thats not so good
:(

[dubmeister]

Shit my eyesight must be bad coz i went and measured the trail and as far as i can tell its +125mm
Measured the original xs forks that the trike came with and they are 825mm from the top of the fork to the centre of the spindle hole (uncompressed)
When we measured the forks with the weight on them in the trike when i first bought it compressed length was 765mm because of the weak springs
Measured the height of the front wheel and tyre (xs) and it was 660mm

Measured the zxr750 ones and they are 825mm uncompressed and 785mm at the height the weight of the trike sits them at
Yoke offset seems to be 50mm
ZXR wheel and tyre height on the front is 640mm

Rear tyres are 660mm tall so to centre of wheel or rear axle 330mm
So the trike is pretty much as it was before i put the zxr front end in

[spyderider]

I dont think you have enough trail. Steering dampers and long bars will not stop the front oscillating if the trail is too shallow.
Thats my experience for what its worth.

Many wrongs will not make a right. IMHO.

[dubmeister]

Is there a bare minimum of trail for a trike then or two settings it should be between as i have seen shedloads of trikes like mine and also loads that must have forks that flex like fuck coz they are extended by feet rather than inches and they must handle fucking awful
Yes i would like 12" of trail rather than 5" but then the forks would be too short again even if i alter the headstock same issue with yokes to alter trail
Gonna fit a damper and try it anyway coz it might make a difference and also the tyre that was on was secondhand and worn triangular so that wont have helped
Checked the forks and the damping on one leg was as hard as possible other was soft as possible :rolleyes:

[Blackjack]

I prefer this for measuring trail....

http://antonyl.brinkster.net/choppers101/trailcalc2.htm

First off, having worked on a few peopes trikes here and there, you're making a mistake to assume that because the previous owner rode it for a while it behaved acceptably.

Secondly, if you think about it, sport bikes run 17" wheels (like the one you have fitted) and not 19" wheels (like the one that was fitted) becuase 17" wheels change direction so much easier. Lower flywheel mass, shorter tyre contact patch.

Do you have a radial tyre on the front?

[dubmeister]

Yes i do have a radial tyre on the front
The previous owner didn't ride it coz he damaged his spine but the owners previous to that put thousands of miles on it every year (mots confirm this ,cant find them though) and i wouldn't want to put yards on it at the moment
Get what your saying about the front wheel size but this problem is in a straight line and at slow speeds as opposed to direction changes where inertia and mass would be more relevant
I have ridden numerous bikes with 17 " wheels on the front and they can feel anywhere from ponderous (gsxr1100l) to fucking awful twitchy thing (yamaha r1) both were similar wheel sizes ,discs,tyres etc so it was the rest of the bike that made it feel that way hence i think its fork length ,tyre size ,shape ,contact area
I have in the past made made a gsxr a twitchy beast by dropping the forks through the yokes but can't do this on the trike coz of the way the way we have sleeved the top of the forks with a stainless tube (5mm wall thickness ) to eliminate flex where we have extended the top of the forks and cant knock it down because the top of the forks are 50mm and are 52mm (i think) were the bottom yoke mounts which means if i move the bottom yoke down i cant move the sleeve down so i can get the top yoke on
Am also unsure now whether the trike is twitching because the forks are to long and the trike is sitting level (gsxr 1100) or if it's twitchy because the forks are too short and its on its nose (like an r1)
Cheers for everyones advise so far

[Borg]

OK

With a V shaped front tyre when you turn it tries to do what it was designed for and tip on its side, this makes one side of the forks compress more than the other, there designed to do this. thus its trying to turn against itself.

---> V look at the contact to road point. this is then trying to go sideways


A U or !_! shaped tyre will not try and do this (as much). You are using a bike front end on a machine it was never designed to be put on.

STOP thinking of bike steering and thing of CAR steering

[jcb]

never had a trike but twitchyness can be something as simple as a badly mounted tyre,unequal damping in f-legs,slightly warped wheel,twisted forks,bad tyre profile,trye too hard(air).if twin disc is one caliper grabbing or one/both disc warped.
only other thing i can think of would be the "triangle" alignment of the 3 wheels and does the front "kant" to a side ie is head twisted or is back slightly out causing front to run at slight angle..

[dubmeister]

Just fitted a tyre that is u section as apposed to the worn out triangular shitty thing that was on it's an am22 avon which has a wide contact patch and is considerably lower profile than your average front tyre so that should help
Have even considered fitting a 17" spacesaver tyre off a mercedes coz they are narrow and almost square section but unfortunately they are not speed rated anywhere high enough to use full time but would be worth trying to see exactly how much difference it made and there £7.50 in the scrap yard:D
Haven't had a chance to try the trike in the last few days because of the shitty weather and am back at work tomorrow and on 12hr days this weekend:(
Thing that pisses me off most is i'm a tyre builder for pirelli so cud build a space saver tyre that would run like a normal tyre if the moulds were in our factory

[odie]

OK

With a V shaped front tyre when you turn it tries to do what it was designed for and tip on its side, this makes one side of the forks compress more than the other, there designed to do this. thus its trying to turn against itself.

---> V look at the contact to road point. this is then trying to go sideways


A U or !_! shaped tyre will not try and do this (as much). You are using a bike front end on a machine it was never designed to be put on.

STOP thinking of bike steering and thing of CAR steering

OH my god here we go again, bike front tyre verse's side car tyre, have you ever turned the handle bars on a trike and looked at the front wheel?
All well and good you aint leaning like a bike but look at the contact patch and the angle of the wheel, it aint up-right when you turn the handle bars to the left or to the right, problem with those square section tyres is that when you turn the bars you go to the outside edge of the tyre, less contact because it square and your on the corner of the tyre.
Square section tyres work on cars because the suspention leg is upright, not at an angle like on bikes, yes i agree that bike front ends are not really suitable for trikes but they aint realy up to holding a bike up either, its a compromise, always has been.
Hub center steering is about the best if your running a square section tyre.
As for this trikes problem............ main one i see is the size of the rear tyres, to tall, probably because the person that built it didnt fit the right diff thus it would rev its nuts off.
By fitting smaller wheels and tyres you would lower the rear end end increase your rake, try and keep to the stock rake and trail if possible, bike manufactures spend a lot of time and money on such things, also a damper and bigger bars will eleiviate the problem but............... it will only mask the problem.
odie

[dubmeister]

Jcb
As far as i can tell the trike runs straight as a die and as you say the tyre that was fitted on the zxr is about the most unsuitable tyre i could possibly have had on (it's in the skip now though so good riddence to that)
Don't think the wheel is warped (although i may be now)
I will just have to try the trike with the new tyre on then see if it's better
Then i will fit the damper that is on its way and see if that helps then i may put it on ebay and go back to riding bikes:D
I would have loved this
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/DSC00440.jpg

[dubmeister]

Odie
I have tried this trike with loads of different wheels ,tyres from 26 1/2" tall to as far down as 24" and too be honest the steering didn't alter much but that may well have been down to the shitty triangular front tyre but my back was a lot worse off:(
Will it make any difference if i keep the rear wheels and tyres as they owe me about £500 now and they also help the gearing and give me a little bit of suspension movement and can i not extend the forks by a few more inches instead?(not ideal i know)
Can't work out the trail difference it would make using the method in the link above at the moment because the trike is 20 miles away and i don't have the measurements to hand

Oh yeh this trike was built by a firm over the north east that is still in business building trikes so i would hope it was built as well as possible when it was initially converted
The weller wheels that were fitted were about the best you had available at the time this was built so have no reason to think they have been added over the years and the torque twister tyres looked a fair few years old too so were probably fitted at the same time and they are almost exactly the same size as the ones that are fitted now
There are far more benefits for me if i can keep the rear wheels and do something with the fork length
Cheers Ian

[sam_g]

Dubmeister,

I had a similar problem with my XJ700 engined trike, which has huge low profile tyres on 17 inch rears. I solved the majority of head shake by changing to a sidecar tyre on a 19 inch rim. I have a damper fitted, but it does very little. I do have wide bars.... if you want to keep your 7/8 bars but set them further back, try a set of dog bone risers... very easy to change angles and distance from yokes and available from USA via Ebay.

I must admit that the biggest change in handling came whan I modified the rear end... Mine's a softail, but I moved the lower shock mounts further back, which had the effect of lowering seat height and changing the rake slightly... the trike has never felt smoother!

[dubmeister]

Theres not many 19" wheels out there :(
Been looking on ebay to see if there was anything i could use but not a lot on there ,thought i might have got something on there off a cheap chinese cruiser stylee bike but no joy

[sam_g]

Front end on mine's an early XJ 650, with the standard hoop... I think all the early yamaha XJ's were on 19's, but I may be wrong.

[maggot]

Theres not many 19" wheels out there :(
Been looking on ebay to see if there was anything i could use but not a lot on there ,thought i might have got something on there off a cheap chinese cruiser stylee bike but no joy

Hi, Harley sportsters and some Dyna-glides use 19" & 21" front wheels,Plus you can get custom wheels for the harleys. You can pick up earlier cast 19" Sportster wheels Cheap. Also you can pick up Honda Comstar wheels in 19" Cheap enough on Ebay.Maggot

[dubmeister]

Was hoping to find a wheel where i could use the discs and calipers off the zxr 750 wheel as they are pretty much standard size and the offset tends to be the same too ,don't fancy measuring spindle sizes and bearing outer sizes and making up a set of caliper mounts to suit the new wheel :(
Am quite capable of doing the above just bone idle:D
You would think being a bike mechanic and working in a breakers for years i would know what would fit (got an idea) but all the ones that are 19" take the big kawasaki mounting for the discs z1300 is 19" and z's some gt's fit but are minging
Harley ones sound okay if they come with discs and spindle 'can't see any on ebay though and will probabley still cost a few quid especially to post

[v8_trike]

Make yourself a set of leading links up to fit existing yokes :thumbu:

[dubmeister]

Got a jmc braced swingarm out of my old gs1000 dragbike somewhere i think ,mmm couple of 54mm scoffolding tubes ,back wheel out of a gsxr1100 ,200/55/17 back tyre , couple of ohlins lookylikey shocks
Or maybe not:D

[v8_trike]

Got a jmc braced swingarm out of my old gs1000 dragbike somewhere i think ,mmm couple of 54mm scoffolding tubes ,back wheel out of a gsxr1100 ,200/55/17 back tyre , couple of ohlins lookylikey shocks
Or maybe not:D

thats the way!! made my trike much better after fitting leading links.

[dubmeister]

In the twenty years it has taken me to find a z1300 trike i liked the look of i never thought of it having leading link forks mainly because they look fucking awful (work well though) didn't have upside down forks either but only because they didn't use them then
Always wanted a shortarsed z1300 trike coz the first trike i ever saw was one and of course they are 6 cylinder :D,shaft drive ,slow steering ,100 - 120 bhp:D ideal trike material

[minxy]

200 section tyre on a GSXR11? Hmmm ....

Any more goodies?

[dubmeister]

Gsxr ,hayabusa or anything that is 3 spoke and was made to take a 180 tyre , dont think i will get the 300/35/17 thats in the garage on (pah )

[dubmeister]

Got a ducati 916 swingarm ,wheel ,tyre,disc,caliper ,hub etc suppose i could make a single sided leading link set up out of that somehow
Got loads of box section to make a jig out of , haven't got a pipe bender though :( got migs tigs plasma cutters but no decent pipe bender
Should really just build a jig and do the steering head angle

[dubmeister]

200 section tyre on a GSXR11? Hmmm ....

Any more goodies?
Bought the tyre off one of the lads at work ,he bought it for his bike but when he fitted it it was too wide and rubbed on the chain so he took it off and sold it to me for £20:D

[matthewmosse]

I've got a gpz1100 front wheel thats 19", could also possibly get me mitts on an xs400 front wheel off a mate, also 19". or old BMW spoked wheel. the kwak one is most redily available and cheap as I've no use for it at the moment.

[dubmeister]

I,ve got a 19" kawasaki one too ,in fact i have the complete front end out of another z1300 which i will more than likely fit to see if it helps the steering then the hunt for a nice front wheel will begin in earnest (got an xs 6/750 19" wheel too
A nice solid alloy harley wheel would look good but would be expensive:(
Would ideally like to keep the discs and forks etc off the zxr but just fit a 19" or even a 21" out of something else just can't think of whet would have something like that fitted ,more than likely be something cruiser style or late 70's to late 80's (not a comstar coz they are the ugliest wheel ever produced )
As i've mentioned earlier i thought i might have got something off a chinese rip off style cruiser 250 dragstar type thing but no joy yet (thinking jin lun,hung low ,wang king or whatever they call them)

[matthewmosse]

jin lun and hong dou 250/ 125 rebel clones use foul, really shitty alloy, cracks up (and bearings are funny size?) tyres are 18" I broke one for spares recently, only good bit was the motor which I still have..........

[v8_trike]

Got a ducati 916 swingarm ,wheel ,tyre,disc,caliper ,hub etc suppose i could make a single sided leading link set up out of that somehow
Got loads of box section to make a jig out of , haven't got a pipe bender though :( got migs tigs plasma cutters but no decent pipe bender
Should really just build a jig and do the steering head angle

Can lend you my pipe bender if ya want, its sat doing nowt (for now)

[dubmeister]

May take you up on the offer of a lend of the pipe bender cheers for that
Am looking for a standard z1300 top yoke at the moment so i can try the z1300 front end i have spare (its a voyager one tho so has built in bars that are waaay too tall)

[spyderider]

Said it before, No trail - will fail.
:mad:

[dubmeister]

Said it before how much trail is acceptable
I can try the front end off the z13 in coz if i can find a top yoke cheap it wont cost more than £25 and it means i have a z1300 front end in good nick to sell over and buy yokes with or pay someone to alter the headstock ,but as i have it i may as well try it
Unfortunately all the sensible options are way out of my price range at the moment but if i can get the trike rideable i can always sort it properly when funds allow

[jcb]

have looked at a few other trikes since you op and dont think its down to trail myself,still think somethings out of line wheel wise or damping is wrong or rim/tyre is causing the shake.is the tyre wearing in little "scoops" cos if so the damping is well wrong n its hopping instead of damping.
i rember having to keep adjusting my sidecar cos it shook its head at diff speeds until i found its "spot" so id still measure exactly the angles to make sure that front is sitting bang on in the middle and the wheel is running true parrallel to the rear.(sidecar had to toe in or out cant rember, but thats different i think cos of layout of wheels.)

[dubmeister]

Am fairly confused at the moment because so far i've been told
My forks are too long
My forks are too short
Not enough trail (125mm)
Wrong profile tyre
Wrong size tyre
Too small front wheel
Back tyres too big
Back tyres not too big
Too much weight at the front
Not enough weight at the front
Needs a damper on

So i am attempting to change things one at a time if possible
So i have taken the zxr complete front end out as i am unsure if the forks weren't walking a bit where we extended them hence causing the front wheel to wobble so to eliminate that i have put the complete front end out of the spare z1300 i have in instead
This should change the size of the front tyre and wheel obviously unfortunately this means getting a top yoke from a standard z1300 not the voyager one that i have
Can't fit the damper i have as the bracket was for the upside down forks not the 41 mm z13 ones (try and make one today)
Have had the trike almost a year and have ridden it about half a mile so am unsure as to how a trike is meant to feel when ridden
As jcb says it could just be something as simple as needing the damping set up correctly
If nothing else this has got my post count up on the forum and the trike part of the forum is getting used for a change:D

[spyderider]

unitsidecars.co.uk

Probably the most knowledgable when it comes to front forks and handling etc.
Dont be put off by the name. Nice and helpful blokes,.been in the business for years.
And I have no connections whatever with them apart from a long chat with the guv. at the Condom Rally.

[dubmeister]

I've seen their advert in trike mag or 100% before and will give them a bell to see what sort of price they are talking (i'm skint coz of short hours at work ,on half wages:()
Got the front end in and it doesn't look half as bad as i thought it would
Waiting for bits so can't do much at the moment
Got some pullback bars coming in the next couple of days ,can't find a top yoke anywhere though

[dubmeister]

Any other bikes use the same top yoke ? was thinking z1000st or gpz1100b1 might fit
Any suggestions of websites that could help

[matthewmosse]

The oddest fault I had causing the bars to shake was on a bmw, after pulling my hair out it turned out the stem was twisting in the bottom yolk....... There will always be an explanation........... eventually. My sidecar outfit has according to others who've ridden it appalling handling since the damper broke and I removed it, I've just got used to it, partly by changing my technique, I tend to pull the bars toward my rather than push, seems to stop the headshaking under power, the damper masked this, tyre wear ain't too bad and I've covered lots of milage with it like that, like 100 000, hence the thing having a log lay off for repairs:o
Good luck with sorting the thing.

[dubmeister]

Think it's just gonna be a process of elimination working from cheapest first
It could just be one big thing wrong or a combination of many so just gonna do one thing at a time and hope it gets a bit better each thing i do

[matthewmosse]

just thought you might be interested to know the cheap yet effective way the steering damper on my outfit was mounted to the forks, it used a clamp like car exhausts, (u shaped round bar with a sheet steel back) just below the bottom yolk damper then attached by a simple brackett, everything covered by the fork gaiter so it looks pretty, might help with the low cost addition of a damper.:unsure:

[dubmeister]

Got to bend up a couple of headlight mounts out of inch flat bar so may see if there is anything a bit thicker to knock up (read manufacture to a very high standard) a damper mount while i am at it

[Blackjack]

Trail for 3 wheeled things, 13mm-50mm is the sort of ballpark.

Too much makes it squirelly at low speed.

FWIW.

[dubmeister]

Thankyou blackjack
At last a figure to work to.
I reckon i am probably not to far away from that and if i am passing poundland today i will buy a protractor and try and work everything out

[Blackjack]

Something like this....

http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=4057

would be better.

[dubmeister]

Was gonna use an adjustable angle woodwork tool that's in the unit and then use the protractor to read off the angle ,headstock is a right twat to get at :(

[dubmeister]

Been contemplating just selling the z13 and buying this instead
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/202e_1.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/07d1_1.jpg

[droid]

Bloody hell!

Last one of those I saw was in kit form embedded in a hedge near Sutton on Forest near York.

We gave the hapless owner a lift home.

:D

[jcb]

Been contemplating just selling the z13 and buying this instead
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/202e_1.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/07d1_1.jpg

shit hot,i had one of them,black with jps gold lines,drove it without the roof on in summer,great fun.n always gonna keep its value i reckon.
they do fall over quite easily tho so a roll bar is a good mod.

[dubmeister]

The dudes got two of these and this is the slow one:eek: its only got a fireblade motor in:D
The one i would like that will be going on ebay shortly has a hayabusa turbo motor n and runs 0-60mph 2.8 seconds :eek: and a quarter mile in 10.4 seconds:D
Was in Retro cars magazine a while back and looked mighty fine
Starting price for the busa one is £10k and he reckons it owes him £22k
If i sell my trike and my 59 ford pop i could just about buy the busa one

[dubmeister]

The busabug
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/busabug2.png
Best description i have heard for this was
330BHP
Three wheels
two seats
and one fucking big smile:D
Its been clocked at santapod 0-110mph in 6.4 seconds:D:D:D
Its got a full aluminium spaceframe chassis ,discs allround ,two calipers per disc
Need a fucking porta potti built into the drivers seat for me to drive it:D

[droid]

Holy fuck.....

Hit a humpback bridge at speed and next stop....Jupiter:D

[v8_trike]

That is nice... very nice, wonder if it's still registered as a 750 on the log book?:rolleyes:

[shaggy696969]

Gotta love a big engined bug ........

[Blackjack]

Was gonna use an adjustable angle woodwork tool that's in the unit and then use the protractor to read off the angle ,headstock is a right twat to get at :(

Yes it probably is.

That's why you measure the angle of the forks... :D

First checking that they are in fact parallel to the headstock by eye.

[dubmeister]

Got some bits made up for the z13 yesterday ,headlight brackets etc and am getting some adapters made up by a mate to use the voyager top yoke with risers so i can use the pullback bars i have just got off ebay (no z13 top yokes anywhere )

[dubmeister]

Got the machining done on the risers and fitted them and the pullback bars and now the wiring to the switches is too short and so is the clutch cable (time for a hydraulic clutch conversion then:rolleyes:)
Got to move the tank back a bit too coz the top yoke is hitting it but it always looked a bit too far forward and up anyway

[v8_trike]

Got the machining done on the risers and fitted them and the pullback bars and now the wiring to the switches is too short and so is the clutch cable (time for a hydraulic clutch conversion then:rolleyes:)
Got to move the tank back a bit too coz the top yoke is hitting it but it always looked a bit too far forward and up anyway

A trikers work is never done :confused:

[dubmeister]

Still waiting for bits to arrive :( bought a ducati clutch master cylinder off ebay but it aint arrived yet)
The steering feels much better even just sitting in the unit and doesn't look half as shit as i thought it would which is good

[dubmeister]

Oh yeh i fitted some nissin four pot calipers of a honda blackbird too as they were just lying round in the unit

[dubmeister]

Finally got round to doing a bit with the z13
Took the half shafts out whilst fitting discs and calipers on the back and when we pulled the shaft out on the side of the axle that had been shortened we discovered that the bearing was well fecked and half shaft had about 5mm runout which may explain the somewhat quirky handling
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/19032009474.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/dubmeisteruk/19032009478.jpg

[harris]

Fookin ell mate.:eek: Some folk eh.:rolleyes:

[Borg]

Thats twisted to feck, not good

[v8_trike]

yo could do with a sleeve over the welded section, then weld the ends of the tube as well, give you a bit extra strength..

[dubmeister]

The section in the picture is a sleeve unfortunately the half shaft had a 5mm gap in between the two halfs of the shaft then the sleeve slid over the top and the ends welded , the sleeve was thin wall stainless pipe (not very thick unlike the person doing the work)
The half shaft is now one piece welded at the correct length with a thick wall sleeve (made out of a spare piece of roll cage tube that was in my supercharged drag beetle) the sleeve is welded at the ends (ends cut at an angle to get maximum weld area) so should be good enough for the job
Need to sort the handbrake cables and brake pipes next and may have to fit another mastercylinder on the back coz i'm not sure if the standard z one will move enough fluid ,i would like to err on the side of caution and change it now rather than later but i'm absolutely skint so will have to go with the suck it and see method for now
Got all the linkages made up for the forward controls done today too as the old linkage rods were flexing to much so blagged some hex bar from work and now its all good
Hydraulic clutch is up and running too zx10 hydraulic clutch cylinder worked by a Aprilia mille r mastercylinder (ducati monster one was tits)

[v8_trike]

cool, roll cage steel should be up to the job! :thumbu:

[ALFIEBEARD]

Hi Dubmeister,
Been reading your thread with interest,I work in Carlisle and live in Annan, I have had 4 Trikes and now have the Hayabusa Trike which is pretty shortarsed, it rides well and is as you are probably aware fuckin quick, it does'nt wag its head either, it has 17"x 215/45 tyres on the back and the original 17" front with a standard bike front tyre, there is an original damper fitted, my bike does,nt have a great deal of steering rake and apart from a fair bit of rear torque steer on hard acceleration (now sorted) it rides well, I had a hard tail Suzuki VS800 Intruder with a Reliant diff in it and that was a proper bastard to steer at low speed due to a steep fork rake and an original 21" front wheel, but after 20mph it squared up very well right up to its flat out 100mph.Another Trike I had was a Yamaha XV1000 Virago which had an RS2000 axle mounted using the original swinging arm, this Trike handled brilliantly but did wag its head upto 30mph, My Busa trike uses a Quaiffe Powerloc Diff specially designed for it and it is strange to get used to as on cornering hard if you power it on the apex of a bend it wants to straighten up,:thumbd: In my opinion I would say you have found the main problem with the driveshaft being out of alignment, On all the Trikes I have ever ridden I realised that the stiffer the arse end the better, in fact I have fitted 1000lb springs and wound the dampers full up on the Busa coz with a fairing any sort of leaning effect scares the shit out of you:eek:.they are an aquired taste to ride and they do take getting used to, but hey looking at your creation I would definately persivere its lovely.
Regards
Alfie B

[dubmeister]

Cheers for the confirmation that the trike will take a bit of getting used to i kind of thought it would
Alfie you should come and see it in the flesh coz its in Annan down the bottom of port street ,if i'm not about you should see one of the other lads (mike jack or nutty neil)
Got the trike in bits again:( (cleaning carbs ) and went to make up the brake pipes and found out the flaring tool had a bit missing so decided to space out the hydraulic clutch set up and went to unscrew the bolts and one sheared off:( so gave up and went home before i knackered anything else

[ALFIEBEARD]

Cheers for the confirmation that the trike will take a bit of getting used to i kind of thought it would
Alfie you should come and see it in the flesh coz its in Annan down the bottom of port street ,if i'm not about you should see one of the other lads (mike jack or nutty neil)
Got the trike in bits again:( (cleaning carbs ) and went to make up the brake pipes and found out the flaring tool had a bit missing so decided to space out the hydraulic clutch set up and went to unscrew the bolts and one sheared off:( so gave up and went home before i knackered anything else

Hi Again,
Yes I know Mike Jack well, and have been down Port St and know where you mean,:thumbu:I will try and catch up with you at some point,:cool:I have a habit of fuckin up jobs now and again so I piss off out of the garage to calm down and go back in when I am sane again,I took the Busa out for a blast today as ive been setting up the rear camber, and its much better now so I give it a fistfull and scared the shit out of myself he he.:thumbsu:I will try to pop down tomorrow morning if I am doing nowt.
Hope to see you soon .
Take Care
Alfie B

[ALFIEBEARD]

Hi Again,
I nipped down to the garage today expecting to see Mike or Neil but it was all locked up with no one around, went back again in the afternoon still locked up, so I went for a blat on the Busa, ended up doing 100mls, f*ck its hard on the old wrists as its still pretty sportsbike ish even with 4" risers on it but got the old adrenalin going:thumbsu:, hurry up and get this big 6 sorted I would love to see it,:D I have always had a passion for 6 pot bikes and my dream was to get a CBX1000 but I could never afford one when I was younger. I reckon your Trike will be startling when you get it sorted.
Take Care
Alfie B