Wot ave I let meself in for?

[MSVA Tech]

Hi all,

Just had a chat with the Ed who's convinced me to make myself available (oh er) on the forum.

I'm Chris the MSVA Tech bod at VOSA I cant promise to check out the forum every day but if you do have any MSVA tech questions I'll do my best to answer quickly. If you're desperate my number is in Issue 60.

Cheers now

[100%Pat]

Welcome Chris, thanks for making the effort to do this for us, I'm sure everyone will appreciate it.
So anyone with trike MSVA questions you can ask them here.
:D
Please DO NOT waste Chris's time with asking stuff you would know if you werent too tight to buy the manual, please only use this for GENUINE queries!

[Yoda]

Okay here goes

what adaptions are considered necessary for a trike to be exempt from the MSVA under the disability option
my new trike will have all hand controls and wheelchair rack (i am disabled by the way..its not a 'get out of jail free' question ;) )
also do you know how you apply for exemption

Yoda

ps as it aint going through MSVA does this mean i can have a giant spike sticking out the front (for leaf collecting purposes of course)

[Mad Dog]

Welcome Chris,

you are sure gonna have yer work cut out.

Take a look around some of the tech posts already here.

[Peirre]

The MSVA manual
got any info on it, availability, where to get, price, ISBN number etc.................

[titusni]

Hi Chris

I had a trike MSVA'ed here in Northern Ireland last January (was the 1st time trike MSVA had been done here). The trike failed on a few minor points - one of which was the absence of hazard lights.

The thing is the triker builder's MSVA manual did not have this requirement in it. He got his manual in October, the hazard requirement was added in November and triker builder was only getting manual revisions at 3 month intervals - so he showed up with his copy of the book (no hazard info in it) and was pointed to the examiner's manual (new copy with the hazard bit in it).

Why doesn't the MSVA work like the house building regs do - changes are announced sufficiently in advance of them coming into force so that people don't turn up and fail due to regs they knew nothing about?

[Sir Ewok]

Hi m8 and welcome to the madhouse. I have a trike, registered as a classic vehicle, will hazards etc be a requirement for MOT purposes (I know it's not an MSVA question, but the rule requiring them stems from there) as somee peeps have had probs.

Can't see a 1905 Darraq with acetalyne lights being retro fitted with emergency flashers, can you?

[MSVA Tech]

:eek: Hi all,

Ok from the top

Pat - thanks I'll do my best

Yoda - Hi, it's the person that gains the exemption, there are no specific tech requirements. What you have with the controls will qualify if your disability is as defined in section 1 of the Disability Discrimination Act. To gain exemption you make a declaration to the DVLA when applying for first licence and registration (form V55). They may want to see the trike. Best advice I can give is to suplly them with as much info about you and the trike as poss. Good luck with it. Just dont ride near me with the pike nut on steroids!

Mad Dog - Cheers mate, I reckon I'll learn just as much as wot I pass on if not more!

Pierre - To get your hands on a manual call our National Enquiry no 0870 6060440 for card sales or send cheque /PO to VOSA, PO Box 12, Swansea, SA1 1BP. Always tell them you want a MOTORCYCLE SVA manual or you might get the car one which costs £7 more. MSVA manual is currently £30 inc p+p, ok sale pitch over. It might be worth hangin on a bit as the first update is having it's final proof read at the mo so should be published soon if TSO are quick off the mark. If you already have a manual send off that bit at the front so that you get notifed when the update is available.

Titusni - The NI scheme is run by DVTA for DOENI, they have run aparallel scheme to ours since startup and since Jan 05 have their own legislation. Hazards for trikes/quads have always been a requirement since the scheme began. Pre scheme some draft versions of the manual were put on the net so that people could comment on the tech requirements for the DfT consultation, this got us the width increase from 1300 to 1700 before 2 headlamps required. One official manual was published these were removed from the net. Bike trike requirements (as opposed to carcyclea) are in Annex 5 of section 6.

Sir Ewok - What ho i've ordered meself an MoT manual so that I'll be in a better position for these kind of enquiries. Vehicles first registered before 01 April 1986 are exempt hazard warning requirements so you should be ok. It would be a real bugger try to blow out and relight four acetylene lamps in sequence.

Thats it folks catch you all again soon

chris

[minxy]

Excellent idea Pat.

Hope you have as much fun as folk trying to catch you out Chris ;) Brave man lol .... :cool:

A great asset to the tech forum.

[100%Pat]

I cant really take the credit for this, Chris rang in about something and then I pressganged him..... :p

[Mad Dog]

Hey Chris,

there are are couple of questions suitable for your advice on the "Rear Mudguard" thread below this one.

[Jay]

Hi Chris

Any info me?

http://www.100-biker.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3750

Cheers

J

[titusni]

Titusni - The NI scheme is run by DVTA for DOENI, they have run aparallel scheme to ours since startup and since Jan 05 have their own legislation. Hazards for trikes/quads have always been a requirement since the scheme began. Pre scheme some draft versions of the manual were put on the net so that people could comment on the tech requirements for the DfT consultation, this got us the width increase from 1300 to 1700 before 2 headlamps required. One official manual was published these were removed from the net. Bike trike requirements (as opposed to carcyclea) are in Annex 5 of section 6.


This was in January 2004. My trike builder had obtained a manual direct from VOSA (and paid the fee for it) in October 2003 and it didn't have the hazard requirement in it - the DVTA guys had it in their manual (they got in Dec 2003 I think) so they ended up photocopying the page(s) for him to help get him ready for the retest. So either VOS sold him a draft or there must have been more than one version published...

Ah well.................trike's been MSVAed a year now (though it did take them about 4 hours to test it originally). There seem to be some "variation" in how testers apply/interepret the rules - my handbrake only operates on the rear LHS wheel although some people on here reckon it should operate on both rear wheels - didn't stop it passing MSVA.

There's pictures at "http://www.oldcolo.com/~bradley/trike/" if you're interested in seeing a lovely shaft driven, bike-engined, IRS setup
:D

[Gypsy]

This was in January 2004. My trike builder had obtained a manual direct from VOSA (and paid the fee for it) in October 2003 and it didn't have the hazard requirement in it - the DVTA guys had it in their manual (they got in Dec 2003 I think) so they ended up photocopying the page(s) for him to help get him ready for the retest. So either VOS sold him a draft or there must have been more than one version published...

Ah well.................trike's been MSVAed a year now (though it did take them about 4 hours to test it originally). There seem to be some "variation" in how testers apply/interepret the rules - my handbrake only operates on the rear LHS wheel although some people on here reckon it should operate on both rear wheels - didn't stop it passing MSVA.

There's pictures at "http://www.oldcolo.com/~bradley/trike/" if you're interested in seeing a lovely shaft driven, bike-engined, IRS setup
:D

yeah , me likes that trike :D

[Tom-madbiker]

so do you only need a hand brake on one side then legally?

[guydewdney]

not rewally a NSVA or MOT question - more a construction and use regs one...

The law states, quite clearly (as reported on many trike building sites) thats:-

You must wear a helmet on a two wheeled motorcycle
UNLESS
1) you are sitting in a sidecar
2) it is a mowing machine...

Its (2) im interested in - (stop laughing!!!) - if i attached a small strimmer to the bottom of the bike - would it then be a mowing machine? how much grass do i have to be able to cut? why couldnt i attch a tiny electric motor and a small blade (old style razor blade?) to it - it cuts grass doesnt it?

are mowing machines allowed on the motorway?

How do i re-register it as a mowing machine?

would this need MSVA? (i doubt it as it has not had the chassis altered in any way)

cue image of being stopped by plod, and having to demonstrate the grass cutting ability on the side of the A41..
cue image of being in court and explaing that its designed for cutting very very narrow strips of grass.... very quickly.. lol

[davesatan]

trike mot manual and sva one wich numbers etc cheers dave

[100%Pat]

I was very tempted to delete your post.... I have stated very clearly this thread is for serious questions only! No I dont have a sense of humour about this, Chris is a very busy bloke and we are feckin lucky he has agreed to give up his time to post on here....He doesnt need to waste even more time wading through bollox posts to work out serious questions. You can post whatever bollox you like on other threads.
NOT THIS ONE!! :mad:

[Sir Ewok]

He could be SERIOUSLY looking for a loophole which makes an ass of the entire MSVA system. Wether that is a good thing or not is up to each individual to work out. Personally if one or two peeps get round the system, fine, however if it opens the floodgates to thousands (some of which may well be dangerous) then no....

[100%Pat]

I still think asking questions like that of an MSVA official who is freely giving up his time to try and help us is not on. Enuf said, or its still time wasting on this thread.

[hondapants]

i have quite a short and simple question.
i have a honda cx 500 and i want to trike it. i know all i have to do is mount an axle on the back and modify the shaft etc. my question is will i still need to get an engineers report for it? it will still only have 2 seats but three wheels.

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Hondapants,

Nice simple question they reply might not be I'm afraid. Basically you will be radically altering a bike to a trike so the taxation class will change which you need to tell the DVLA about. This should result in them wanting a Ministers Approval Certificate (MAC) which is what we issue following a successful MSVA examination.

MSVA is a pre registration check of design and construction, it is a non destructive visual examination that aims to ensure bikes, trikes and some quads meet, as closely as is practicable, type approval requirements. An independant enineers report would give information that depends on what requirements the engineer was assessing against but would not satisfy the DVLA.

Don't be put off, MSVA is not the nightmare that early rumours would have everyone believe. Check out Trike Tek in the magazine to see what can be achieved while meeting the requirements.

Good luck with it

Chris

[MSVA Tech]

Davesatan (sounds like one of my daughters old boyfriends :D )

You can order both from the VOSA Enquiry Unit on 0870 6060440

For MSVA ask for the MSVA Inspection manual (£30 inc p+p)

For MoT ask for the Car & light Commercial MoT testers manual (£Don't know)

Hope this helps

Cheers

Chris

[addjunkie]

simple question relating to hand brakes on trikes. I know it needs to operate on both rear wheels, but does the operating handle need to be on any specific side of the trike, might need to put it on the right for a disabled relative to drive too. also does it need to be easily operable whilst driving, or just usable when stopped.

Also if a manual bias or balance value is fitted into a hydraulic linked brakeing system does it need to be visibly locked in one position, if not easily accessible from the driving position.

thanks for your time............ way better than ringing any goverment offcie help line , pressing 1, 2, 5, 1, 4 to get a recored message, im sure you know what i mean.

[guydewdney]

i cant believe for a moment that a handbrake has to be on any particular side - my GFs trike has a lh operating handbrake off a Jag XJS (as it drops bak down after use - not stick up like 99% of HBs) - the reason for this is the XJS has it on the RHS of the drivers seat for some reason.

All mercedes from about the 1980s onwards have a FOOT operated handbrake - finger release (ok - OT - heres a challenge for you - {dont reply here} - how do u do a hill start with that system?)

back on topic - so if Merc make handbrakes on the foot, jag on the rhs - i cant see them winge-ing abotu wich side its on...

bias valves are entriely adjustable - some automatically - so why not manually? leave it be..


Guy
{still thinking of lawnmowers ;) }

[Tom-madbiker]

yes but i want to know whether a trike will pass the msva with a hand brake operating only on one side cos it would be an arse to change if it fails on it

Chris can you put my mind at rest

thanks Tom

[Sir Ewok]

My handbrake is underneath the trike and you have to lay on the ground to operate it!!!! Trike was built that way and has passed every MOT since built.

Jag are probably tapping into the nostalgia thing, when cars had their handbrakes outside on the running board and it does leave a hand free for gear changing etc....

[Yoda]

a lighting question
as i understand it a trike over a certain width needs twin headlights

what id i was to use one 6"headlamp and 2 x 4" headlamps on a bar either side would this pass the two headlamp rule?
(obviously they would all be set to come on with the lighting as normal)

Yoda

[MSVA Tech]

Ok peeps "handbrakes" we all call em that and no doubt will forever more but (told you there always was one) when we're dealing with regulations, directives, acts and MSVA we call them parking brakes, why? well for one if we're operating a handle bar steered vehicle we usually use our right hand to operate a "service" (the braking systems used to slow or stop the vehicle under normal use) brake and, as was pointed out by our potential grass chopper, merc and some others (usually septic cars) have a parking prake operated by the foot. So if we call it a parking brake we can operate it with whatever body part suits.

Now for MSVA (if its already registered then MSVA doesnt apply) a bike trike (and handlebar steered quad but not a three wheeled moped) requires a parking brake that operates on the wheels of at least one axle, so both rears or the single front.
The parking brake must be able to be applied from the driving position (either side)

The control must be operated independantly from any service brake so a bungy around the handlebar lever is a no no.

It must be held in the "on" (applied) position by purely mechanical means so no hydraulic or pneumatic or magical systems.

All clear? as mud? good read the next Trike Tek I think Alik is gonna expand on all this

Cheers

Chris

[MSVA Tech]

If braking systems are fitted with adjustable bias valves the brakes will need to be tested in the "worstcase scenario" ie with the adjustment at both extremes best bet is to find the happy medium and lock the adjuster in position, drilling and roll pins keep the examiners happy.

Cheers

Chris

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Yoda,

A bike trike can be up to 1700mm wide overall before two headlamps (dip and main) are obligatory. You can only have a maximum of two dipped beam headlamps whatever the width.

If yours is less than 1700 mm the best set up using three lamps woul be to have the centre one wired for dip and main beams and the two outboard ones as main beam only.

Hope this helps

Chris

[dracken1]

damn was really hoping you were going to say he needed another 6 headlights :D

[MSVA Tech]

Why is it a Vespa :D

[MAX]

Hi chris just a quick question i'm coming towards the end of my trike build and am looking at getting it MSVAed in the near future. Seeing as ther is no tax or mot on it will it have to be trailered to the test site or can it be riden thanx MAX

[MSVA Tech]

Yo Max,

Basically because MSVA is a "statutory examination" ie required by law if you have adequate insurance cover and your test is pre booked (all MSVAs are) and it meets C&U then you may ride to and from the test without registration and VED (tax disc). Our stations should send you an appointment letter once the test date n time is confirmed so if you are pulled over you can show that you are on your way to us. (they might take a dim view if you decided on a round britain diversion to get there!)

Same sort of thing applies to pre booked MoTs, MSVA and MoT can be done in any order (bit chicken and egg really) as they are looking at different things.

Hope this clears things up a bit
Cheers

Chris

[guydewdney]

on a similar note - its a little known fact that you can ride to a pre-booked MOT station without a number plate if you are registering a newly imported / built vehicle

I had to do it right past slough police station on a Husqvarna XC430 witha maico 490 engine in it (500 cc two stoke full competition bike, loud as f**k, and impossible to ride without wheeliing everywhere lol )

[TaxiDave]

Hiya Chris. Same sort of question as Yoda asked. Is it only the twin headlight rule that is dictated by a trike with an overall width wider than 1700mm, or is there anything else that the extra width will change over a narrower trike??

[dracken1]

i'd like to know the same as taxidave above also.
as a vw beetle measures 1400mm hub face to hubface. thats only giving a builder 150mm per side to play with :(

[Yoda]

also as what if i had the lkighting setup as described earlier
1 main headlight in the middle and two smaller headlights either side on a bar in spotlight position

if my trike is wider than 1700 can i use the two smaller lights as the main lights (is there a restriction as to how far apart twin headlights have to be)

as you can gather i really dont want twin headlights

can you clarify if the headlight thing is part of an mot test as well as an MSVA test

if its not part of an mot test then i will be ok as i will be msva exempt anyway

Many Thanks
Yoda

[TaxiDave]

Also, hyperthetically, when the MSVA test and the first MOT is out of the way, would an unscrupulous person ( not me, Yoda or Dracken obviously ) be able to change the twin set-up in favour of a single headlamp, or would a normal MOT station know that they have to measure the overall width of the trike. :D

[MSVA Tech]

What ho chaps,

The 1700mm max width was a concession given for headlamps only in the MSVA regs, if you look at a wide trike with ECWVTA (like the Booms) you will see the two lamps on horizontal bars.

Ok headlamps chapter and verse the important ones are the dipped beam
Dipped beam lamps
Colour: White
Number 1 or 2 max
Position: At the front of the vehicle (ie infront of rider)
Min height: 500m(to centre of lamp dipped beams are the only ones measured to this point)
Max height 1500mm
Max 200mm from a single (ie separate) main beam headlamp
Vehicles over 1700mm wide must be fitted with 2 lamps, and if 2 dipped beam headlamps are fitted - max 400mm fro outermost edge of vehicle and min 500mm distance between illuminating surfaces of twin lamps. This can be reduced to 400mm if 2 dipped beams are fitted to a vehicle less than 1300mm wide.

Main beam headlamps
Colour: white
Number: 1 min
Fitted at the front maximum 200mm between single dipped and main beam headlams. Vehicles over 1700mm wide must be fitted with two lamps.

MoT

The new section 9 (trikes and quads Aug 2004) also requires vehicles over 1700mm wide too be fitted with two lamps. :eek:

Think that covers it, you'd end up buggering about with lots of lamps if you were to modify things post MSVA/MoT and then have to keep changin back for subsequent MoTs.

Have fun

Chris

[Yoda]

have played with tape measure and decided to use the two headlamps in the spotlight positions as the main lights as the 500mm allows this and the centre headlamp will be on a seperate circuit
whooppee, sorry dracken you nearly had another 6in light sold there

Yoda

[dracken1]

dam.......... :D

[Tom-madbiker]

Hi Chris

Can i have rear indicators flashing forward as well as backward (they are on the rear guards) and if so do i still need front mounted indicators if the rear ones are visible from the front of the vehicle
Thanks Tom

[guydewdney]

http://www.vca.gov.uk/downloads/files/vca005.pdf

useful regs on bikes /trikes

[MAX]

Hi chris i rang up VOSA today to enquire about booking the trike in for an MSVA but the person i spoke to didn't think it needed to be tested as it was over ten years old and their tech expert wasn't available. Any clear guidence on this gratfully recieved thanx MAX

[MSVA Tech]

Hi All,

Sorry I've not been on for a while had some domestics to sort out.

Tom - the front indicators can be mounted on the rear guards they need to be between 350mm and 1500mm from the ground (the whole lamp) and be at least 240mm apart.

You can only have a maximum of two front indicators (one each side) so there's no need to fit any more up front.

the rear indicators have the same height requirements as the front but they must be at least 500mm apart and each lamp must be no more than 400mm from the outside edge of the trike. You can have a maximum of four (two each side) rear indicators.

Max the ten year rule applies to complete vehicles that are at least that age have you built a trike based on a bike that is over ten? Even if this is the case you have created a "new" or more accurately, radically altered vehicle.

I can probably advise you best if you give me a call on 0117 954 2544 during office hours.

Cheers guys

Chris

[Pagan]

Back to the lights issue, in my recent MOT the tester asked where the sidelights were, as in a car set up. I pointed out that bikes don't have the same set up as cars and that there is only dip and main, with no sidelight provision. As it is being retested on Tuesday, I am a bit concerned that he is going to fail it on this?

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Pagan,

I'll take a guess that it's a trike we're talking about as a bike doesn't need a front position lamp for MoT if it has a headlamp. (bikes do need a front position lamp for MSVA tho).

All trikes (whether bike trikes or carcycles) are classed as class 3 or 4 vehicles for MoT, class 3 if 450kg or under unladen class 4 if above (this is the same weight limit used to decide if a trike has a tricycle or plg tax classification). This means when a trike is tested the tester is using the car and light commercial manual which covers class 3 and 4. :confused:

The new section 9 in the MoT manual that provides specific information on trikes and quads requires either one centrally mounted front position lamp if the vehicle's maximum width is 1300mm or less and two lamps if it wider.

There are no positional requirements for the MoT :) (again unlike MSVA). Most trikes usually have them on the rear guards so that the rear axle doesn't get whacked by an oncoming vehicle. It should be fairly straight forward to tap into the feed to the rear position (tail) lamps.

Hope this clears things up for you and good luck with the retest.

Cheers

Chris

[davesatan]

can you than kthe gentleman i spoke to from your office last thursday very helpfull . love and respect dave satan answered loads of questions on trike and day time use mot for bikes cheers dave

[MSVA Tech]

Cheers Dave,

I'll pass that on, it was Harry you were speaking to he's one of our examiners. He spent last week with me to get an idea of what I do so that he can cover phone enquiries if I am away.

He'll be chuffed to know he's been of help.

Chris

[titusni]

Hi Pagan,

The new section 9 in the MoT manual that provides specific information on trikes and quads requires either one centrally mounted front position lamp if the vehicle's maximum width is 1300mm or less and two lamps if it wider.

There are no positional requirements for the MoT :) (again unlike MSVA). Most trikes usually have them on the rear guards so that the rear axle doesn't get whacked by an oncoming vehicle. It should be fairly straight forward to tap into the feed to the rear position (tail) lamps.


MOT question - my trike's got 2 mudguard mounted position lamps like you mentioned. My twin headlights have separate bulbs for sidelights but they've never been wired up - is it ok to wire these up so that I'll have a total of 4 position lamps/sidelights?

[titusni]

Hi Chris

Leaving aside that the MOT now does not require your exhaust can to have any markings/stamps anymore. I realise that for MSVA there is a noise test specifically using a decibel meter so its clear cut'n'dry whether a trike exhaust is too noisy or not. However for MOT purposes things are a little less clear - as some else mentioned in one of the other message threads:

"However it is up to the MOT tester, as long as in the opinion of the tester
it is no louder than a standard exhaust sytem it will pass."

Now, for a trike, whether bike or car based, its unlikely that the original exhaust system can be re-used in its entirety - so there would be no such thing as "a standard exhaust system" to compare it against.

I've got a V-Max trike with a customer 4-2-1 system - is the MOT guy supposed to compare that with the normal V-Max bike exhaust??

Do you know if in the future decibel meters will be used during MOTs?

What happens for a trike (or indeed a old bike) where replacement parts are no longer available for the exhaust system. If I was to get new downpipes made up for example how am I to have any control over whether thery end up making the exhaust sound louder than beforehand?

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Titus,

I'm gona have to assume that DVTA use the same or similar MoT manuals as us.


There is no upper limit on front position lamps for MSVA or MoT. It is only EC Whole vehicle type approval that has a max so wiring up the pilot bulbs in the headlamps will be ok.

Because trikes are tested under the class 3/4 manual the exhaust checks are fairly straightforward. the checks are: (straight from the book)

1. Examine the condition of the whole exhaust system, including the silencers and mountings, for security, detereiation and completeness.

2. With the engine running

a. check the exhaust system for leaks. Note : a durable repair to an exhaust system which effectively prevents leaks is acceptable providing the system is structurally sound.

b. assess subjectively the effectiveness of the silencer in reducing exhaust noise to a level considered to be average for the vehicle.

The test is subjective because it is up to the tester he will listen to the noise produced and make a decision.

There are no plans to bring in metered noise tests for MoT at present the meters we use are expensive and it would put a lot of burden on MoT garages. I believ there has been a push for noise testing from some parties in EU but I reckon it is a long way off if ever but don't quote me on that!

There is nothing in the manual about which components are required to make up the exhaust system.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Chris

[excalibur]

OK....someone has got to ask this




How much does the msva test cost?

[titusni]

Both a MSVA and MOT question.

What's the situation on twin horns (i.e. high and low note)? Are these ok?

[Mad Dog]

Same with all vehicles,

Twin horns ok - sounded simultaneously.

But,
Two tone or musical where the note is varied are a no no.

Got air horns on me Harley - hidden under the gearbox - they can drop the stockings on a pensioner from 100 feet away :D

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Excalibur,

Here you go, MSVA Test Fees

Low Power Moped (Velosolex type things) £45
Two wheeled vehicle (inc chair outfit) £70
Three or four wheeled vehicle £85
Out of Hours supplement to above £20
Retest (within six months of orginal test) £15
Duplicate/Replacement Certificate £10

Many items on the test qualify for a free retest if the vehicle is returned to for retest within five working days.

Cheers

Chris

[MSVA Tech]

Yep Mad Dogs right, got to be continous uniform sound for MSVA for MoT you can have a gong bell or siren if the London Science Museum certifies that the vehicle was designed before 1 jan 1905 and built before 31 Dec1905.

Cheers

Chris

[Scorch]

Ok so we have read the MOT manual section 9 and viewed the latest DVD from them but we are still unclear whether you are allowed to build a trike hardtail????? A simple yes or no is all I require, please put me out of my misery, (I have been looking all over the place for the answer!)
Thanks, :confused: Scorch

[MSVA Tech]

Scorch,

Yes mate you can :D

even C& U excuses non car vehicles from having suspension

build, enjoy, MSVA and keep me in a job! :D :D :D

[Scorch]

Thank you to Chris for giving up his time to do this for us all, I have just re-discovered the 100% website and what a change and this is the best bit! Sorry but you can probably expect some more odd questions from this direction. Once again, THANK YOU Chris!!! :)

[titusni]

Another MSVA question.

When my trike was tested a year ago one of the initial issues was that it had 3 tail/brake lights rather than 2. To get it through the MSVA the middle tail light was disconnected (well actually it had a bit of cardboard put inside the lense to block it as the tail also was the license plate light).

I never did hear a problem explanation for why there couldn't be 3 tail lights.

So what exactly do the regs say?

[greg]

do i need a reversing light on my reliant based trike?
if so where do i take a feed from i assume somewhere on the gear box?

[MSVA Tech]

Hi All

Scorch: Cheers m8 glad to be of help.

Titus: I know your MSVA was done in the early days, what I reckon happened is that because there is no mention of optional stop/tail lights they didn't allow them But (as I keep saying there's alway one) because MSVA is a (GB) national scheme (legislation for the official NI scheme came in Jan) the number of lamps allowed follows RVLR and not EC directives. Directives are cut and dried ie you must have these lamps you can have these lamps and nothing else. RVLR does not limit the fitting of certain addidional lamps and that is reflected in the MSVA regs though perhaps not quite so clearly in the manual. So as long as all your rear lamps are fitted on the centre line or symetrically they will be ok. When alls said and done we all make mistakes at least this one didn't adversely affect safety.

Greg: Not for MSVA m8 they are optional. If your want to fit one they have to be white (the light that is), no more than 2 lamps and the whole lamp(s) fitted between 250mm and 1200mm from the ground.
Reversing lamps are not an MoT test item either.

Right I'm going to be off untill 29th so you all have a good easter and I'll catch up with you then

Cheers

Chris

[titusni]

Titus: I know your MSVA was done in the early days, what I reckon happened is that because there is no mention of optional stop/tail lights they didn't allow them But (as I keep saying there's alway one) because MSVA is a (GB) national scheme (legislation for the official NI scheme came in Jan) the number of lamps allowed follows RVLR and not EC directives. Directives are cut and dried ie you must have these lamps you can have these lamps and nothing else. RVLR does not limit the fitting of certain addidional lamps and that is reflected in the MSVA regs though perhaps not quite so clearly in the manual. So as long as all your rear lamps are fitted on the centre line or symetrically they will be ok. When alls said and done we all make mistakes at least this one didn't adversely affect safety.


RVLR is the UK road lighting regs?

So as my mid-tail/brake is on the centre line I guess I'm fine then.

Thanks mate.

[Duggie]

Hi Chris
Sorry I am new to this Forum business and have posted a question as a new thread instead of on your sticky. Could you have a look and let me know what you think? Many thanks, Duggie
:o

[Mustang Boy]

Chris,
i've been told that if a bike is over 10 years old and the trike conversion can be removed, thus able to turn trike into bike again.... then it doesn't need an MSVA test. (Breathe).
Is this correct?

Regards.

Mustang Boy.

[excalibur]

I was told any vehicle modified over 10 years ago doesnt need it either....as the DVLA points system hadnt come in then, is this correct does anyone know?

[MSVA Tech]

Guys,

MSVA does not apply to vehicles over ten years old. If you take an old bike and convert it you are creating a different vehicle and if DVLA reckon it needs MSVA then that's where we in VOSA come in.

MSVA only applies to vehicles that are not registered or have to be re registered. DVLA have various definitions of vehicles; rebuilt, radically altered etc with their own rules for different types. They do a leaflet called INF26 which gives more info.

I know this doesn't clarify things too much but my knowledge is based on how to prep things to get through MSVA. I'm not too hot on how to avoid it altogether (nor would I want to be otherwise I'd be out of a job!!)

Cheers

Chris

[davesatan]

can you use a disc lock as a handbrake ?

[Sir Ewok]

Ever tried doing a hill start with a disc lock. Not impossible, but would need two peeps...... :D

[davesatan]

just curious mate, its mechanical could be perminantly fixed etc

[Yoda]

just curious mate, its mechanical could be perminantly fixed etc

i think that a hand brake has to be able to be applied from the seated position on the trike...........see trike tek does sink in

dont think moving your seat to the front wheel will work, neither will sitting upside down on your seat so that the front wheel is within reach will either :) :)

[excalibur]

So Chris, if I had triked say a VW beetle back in 1994 and kept the original registration, that would have been OK then.......what would happen if i had forgot to change the details of the log book back then and it still said it was a car?

[MSVA Tech]

Davesatan,

I'll have a pint of what you're drinking mate! :D As pointed out by Yoda you have to be able to apply the parking brake from the riding position, nice try.

Excalibur,

You are supposed to notify DVLA of any changes that affect their records it would have been better doing it in 94 when there was no SVA of any type. If, for example, you were pulled by the police and they checked the reg no and it came up as a car and they were looking at a trike there might be some questions asked. I'm not too hot on the DVLA side of things but I'm sure they can hit you with a fine for not keeping them informed of changes :eek: .

[100%Pat]

Basically if they stop you and do a check and it comes up as a car when in fact you are on a trike. Your stuffed, its ilegal, and they throw the book at you. I've heard of cases where the trike is impounded there and then, I've even heard of it being impounded and crushed! :mad:

[Mad Dog]

Basically if they stop you and do a check and it comes up as a car when in fact you are on a trike. Your stuffed, its ilegal, and they throw the book at you. I've heard of cases where the trike is impounded there and then, I've even heard of it being impounded and crushed! :mad:

Trust me this is true. Happened to a fellow Club Member.

Police stopped him because he was riding a trike but the V5 and DVLA record showed it as a Reliant Robin Estate Tricycle.

Whilst it was a Reliant and original chassis as tricycle - , the body design on the DVLA shows it as having a Robin body, which it clearly did not have.

Confiscated on the spot.

[excalibur]

The reason I ask is because a mate of mine has a VW trike, that he built in 1987. He has had it for years, but realised the other day he forgot to inform DVLA of the changes and it still says its a car. I know back then a lot of trikes using VW's kept the original mark as there was no points system. I used to have a Phoenix trike years ago and a 1979 T plate and the log book said VW Beetle Tricycle.
Was just wondering if anyone knew what he could do to set the record straight and get it all legal, he's been riding it for all these years as it is

[Scott- Evil]

Ok just a quick one, in the prosses of designing my trike i came up with the idea of putting the indicators infont of the foot control's ( my dragons front arms) to save them sticking out of the dragons neck (the controls and head set). I have looked through the book (thanks for details by the way) and am unable to find anything about the "official" hight of indicators.
Is there such a thing as a hight off the floor? Have i missed it when i glossed through? Thats all, thanks, scotty.

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Scotty no probs mate, the info on lighting position is in Annex 5 of section 6. Front indicators have to be at least 350mm from the ground and no higher than 1500mm (the whole lamp needs to be between these figures).They also have to be a minimum of 240mm apart. Front indicators can be mounted on the rear mudguards (dragon's wings? :D ) as well as at the front.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Chris

[Scott- Evil]

Yeah i had already thought of the wheel mud guards as wings.
However i was going to mount the rear indicators and rear brake light in the mud gaurd, but yeah i dont see why i cant make my idea into a tube incorporated in the mud gaurd, and have the front indecators as well.

Thanks boss. :)

[davesatan]

any advice chris cheers dave
http://www.100-biker.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=6070
road legal dodgem ?
can it be registerd etc

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Dave,

Anything's possible if your imagination's big enough and your pockets deep enough. :D

The speed puts it outside the moped categories (2,3 or 4 wheeled) so it would be a bodied trike or quad depending on how many wheels are lurking under it.

If you go for it let me know, I'd love to be at the MSVA for that one :eek:

Cheers

Chris

[davesatan]

starting to go for silly money but tempted to give it a try cheers chris

[Blackjack]

Chris,

What, exactly, does this over 10 years old thing mean?

If you chop something about and it's pre 1995 it doesn't need an SVA test?

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Blackjack,

Enjoyed the shed head, nice one, puts my feeble attempts at shaping ally to shame! :o

The ten year old thing is a rolling exemption that DVLA will accept for unregistered vehicles for which the date of origin (manufacture, first use or first registration outside GB) can be proved.

If you have a bike that is already registered and you modify it you need to tell DVLA about things on the V5 or V5C (colour, engine details wheelplan etc) if it is not classed as radically altered (usually bike to trike), or rebuilt using a mix of new and used parts (second hand frames are the killer here) they will note the alterations and sent anew V5C.

DVLA do aleaflet (INF 26) which explains their rules and the infamous points system. The info is also on their website (dvla.gov.uk)

At the end of the day (oh **** a cliche! :D ) MSVA requirement will depend on what you start with what you do with it and what you end up with.

If you want to discuss specifics you can give me a bell on 0117 954 2544 on work days.

Cheers
Chris

[Blackjack]

Yeah, Right. So where were you today then? :D

Do you just work in Bristol or do you live here too?

[smeghead]

so msva tech from your reply to blackjack, if i for example had an old ss50 that was modified(eg made rigid ) over 10 years ago and its been languishing in a shed since then and it used all the same engine forks wheels etc ,is the same colour,but has had the frame modified then it doesnt need an msva. is that correct.
sorry if its a stupid question but being bristolian means i can't decipher big sentances.oh and a simplistic answer would be appreciated ;)
cheers
animal

[ian trike]

Hi Chris
Are there any rules in the msva (trike) that controls (indicators,horn,dip)
need to be on the handlebars,
am trying to get a clean look to the bars !
Thanks
Ian

[Yoda]

Hi Chris
Are there any rules in the msva (trike) that controls (indicators,horn,dip)
need to be on the handlebars,
am trying to get a clean look to the bars !
Thanks
Ian
n ot sure of the legal side but i seen this at the jugsters rally last year

http://www.bikerlifestyle.co.uk/Image/Jugsters/images/Bostedbladder%200055.jpg

[MSVA Tech]

Blackjack,

Soz mate saw a chance to escape so I grabbed it. I work and live in digs in Brisle during the week but family is in Hampshire. Tried the daily comute for the first four months of havin this job but it left both brain and bum numb(probly cos there's not much difference in my case :D )

Animal,

Nowt wrong with comin from Brisle, lovely city.

If the SS50 is registered it won't need MSVA.

If it's over ten years old and the age can be proved (owners clubs can sometimes help) it won't need MSVA

If it's not registered and you have no proof of age then MSVA it is.

Ian Trike

Scoured all the bumf and can't find anything that specifies switch position. On the MSVA we're looking for presence, security and operation.

A very zealous copper might try and get you under Construction and Use Reg 100 which is the "cover-all" about posing a danger to rider/driver or other road users but I reckon it would be difficult to prove unless you to have to be a contorsionist to operate the switches

Cheers All

Chris

[ian trike]

Thanks Yoda and Chris
Will set about making a real slik pair of bars
Bit like these ! But in 42mm tube

[Mad Dog]

Nice looking bars,

but,

(and I might be wrong),

the pointy front to the risers could be a no-no on MSVA test

:cool:

[MSVA Tech]

Yep Nice bars .......but (there's always a but on this thread! :eek: )they would probably fall foul of the bit in the inspection manual that says " ...check for any protruding parts pointing outwards, that are;

a) pointed

b) sharp

and are likely to increase the risk of seriousness of body lesions suffered by any person struck or grazed by the vehicle in the event of an accident."

So a bit less "spikey" at the front should keep the examiner happy.

Cheers and good luck with the build.

Chris

[colin]

Chris,

Was just wondering I have a reliant engined trike at the moment, would I have to put it though an MSVA test if I changed the engine in it to a motorcycle? :confused: :D

Cheers

[MSVA Tech]

Colin,

If it's already registered then all you need to do is enter the new engine number and capacity on the changes section of your registration doc (Section E on V5 or section 7 on V5C) sign and date the declaration and send it off to DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BA. I always make a copy of the V5 before sending it off just in case :eek: !

Cheers

Chris

[Mad Dog]

...... I always make a copy of the V5 before sending it off just in case :eek: !

Cheers

Chris


Wise words.

I do the same with my Driving License.

:D

[TektroG]

Chris,

I want to build an internal upside down U shaped frame in my sidecar from one inch box section that will protrude thru the fibreglass body of the sidecar and be welded to the external sidecar chassis. The main reason for this is to provide mounting points for a 3 point car seat belt so I can secure a baby seat.

My understanding is that if seatbelts are fitted in a vehicle they must be tested at MoT time. Is this the case in a sidecar, and if so is it down to the tester's opinion of whether I've done a good job or what criteria does he go on?

Thanks in advance,

Tektro

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Tektro,

Seat belts in sidecars are NOT a testable item at MoT.

Obviously as you're going to use it for a child seat you will want it to be the business. On MSVA we look for any potential load path from the seat belt mountings to be dissipated through the main chassis (triangulation, bracing etc.) We would expect to see mounting bolts of at least 8.8 grade (metric). The minimum bolt diameter we would expect to see is M8 although M11 or 7/16 unf is generally the norm. Threaded bushes should be welded (at both ends) through the tube and not mounted on the surface.

Sorry if any of this is teaching you to suck eggs.

Cheers

Chris

[Sir Ewok]

Where I work (Kab Seating) we build lorry, forklift and taxi seats and all our seat belt anchors (nuts or shafts) are 7/16 UNF. This is pretty much an industry standard as we supply to the USA, Europe and Asia.

[manky monkey]

Probably been asked before, but do I need rear mudguards on a small Reliant engined trike? Have asked in the general forum but need clarification. Not MSVA, just MOT related. Seem to be loads of trikes running without them. Will I get pulled over if I try the same? Are they an MOT requirement? :confused:

[MSVA Tech]

Hi

Mudguards are a requirement under construction and use regs (reg 63) which requires every vehicle to be equipped with wings or any other similar fittings to catch, so far as is practicable, mud or water thrown up by the rotation of it's wheels or tracks.

I can't see a specific reference to mudguards in the MoT manual. I guess it depends on what your local police are like.

Cheers

Chris

[manky monkey]

Mmm, O.k. Thanks.

[TektroG]

Cheers for the response. I will have a chat with me m8 who is fabricating the item and check the design conforms to this.

[arachnid]

Hi Chris, not realy a msva thing this! just wounderd if you or any one can give me some advice here. i am building a relient trike(my first build) and wanna keep it light.the licenceing thing says that a car licence is needed for eny thing over 410kg but nothing is said about useing a car licence under this weight? what i need to know is can i ride a trike under 410kg on a car licence? help . thanks

[Mustang Boy]

Hi Chris, not realy a msva thing this! just wounderd if you or any one can give me some advice here. i am building a relient trike(my first build) and wanna keep it light.the licenceing thing says that a car licence is needed for eny thing over 410kg but nothing is said about useing a car licence under this weight? what i need to know is can i ride a trike under 410kg on a car licence? help . thanks
I'm not Mr MSVA man!!! But if you have a car license then you can ride any trike any weight.
There is something tho' about if you passed your test after '98 then you have to do another test!!
Phone DVLA if you want a deffo answer but i can assure you i'm right....as always!!

Cheers'en. :)

[MSVA Tech]

Yep as Mustang Boy say a car license covers all trikes as does a bike license if it was obtained before a certain date (2001 I think ish!)

Keeping the trike under 450kg unladen (ready to go except fuel) will keep it in the Tricycle category when it comes to tax disc time over 450 kg it becomes a plg (don't ask) same as a car. Trike £60 plg £110, good reason to keep the puonds off. :D

By the way folks I'm going to be away for the next couple of weeks so wont have access to the net. But if you see a sad old git bopping to Sabbath at Download it might just be me.

Cheers All

Chris

[TektroG]

We would expect to see mounting bolts of at least 8.8 grade (metric)
Is this the number that normally embossed on the head of a high tensile bolt?

Threaded bushes should be welded (at both ends) through the tube and not mounted on the surface

Is this the receptacle for the bolt to go into? If so I was going to bolt through the box section with a thread cut into the hole on the far side plus a nut beyond that. Do I need to weld the bolt that holds the seatbelt in place?

[Sir Ewok]

Don't know if it's a legal requirement, but I would for my own peace of mind.

[x-boxtriker]

Hi tek/bod :cool: Ok i have a trike over 1700mm that want to put in for MSVA soon.
up front i've got two indicators 400mm apart?!! plus do they have to be rubber mounted?
4 headlights on it two on the forks and two out on a rail 800mm apart all 4 do dip and hi beam is this ok!!!! plus i have two marker lights 350mm in on the rear guards.
at the back i have center one fog light 250mm floor to center of light
then stop/markers/indicators at 1100mm apart from center
then the two guard markers 350mm in on the guards light to the rear as well
is this little lot ok!!!!

when in park
the front/rear guard marker lights only and the center head lights only
???


also this unladen weight
do i have to run it down to a weight bridge?? and get a ticket [right pain in the ass it miles away]
can i have a near guess it as you will weigh it when it's in for the test anyhow???
thanks for any help :D
boxtriker

[Goff]

Hiya Chris and welcome!!
Rightywhoo...ive got an Aprilia RS125 that was bught from Aprilia racing back in 2000. It was used as a track bike and was never registered. We have completely stripped and rebuilt the bike without adding any mods just to make sure nothing was bent/broke etc cos i want to ride it on the road. Before its registered i gotta take it for MSVA. Thing is can it be ridden on a public road to and from the test centre without a VRM? I got a couple of mates who are dibbles and one says yes and one says no! The bike is insured and has an MOT, but is currently in Sheffield so getting it over would be easier if it could be ridden.
Cheers!

[MSVA Tech]

x-boxtriker big apologies for the delay been away and when I got the 100% site was barred as being a porn site!!! (don't you just love nanny IT people :rolleyes: )

Ok trike lights: I'll give you the spiel straight from the book

Dipped beam headlamps: 2 and only 2 allowed. Min height 500mm (to centre of lamp) As the trike is over 1700mm wide the lamps must be within 400mm of the extreme outside edge of the vehicle and there must be 500mm between them (get the outside edge bit right and the rest will follow). So your best bet would be to disconnect the feed to the dips on the two lamps on the forks.

Main beam: keep the mains in the outside lamps connected as the obligatory lamps and have the two inner ones as optional main beams.

Front position lamps:Must be white. Min height to bottom of lamp 350mm max to top of lamp 1200mm. Must be within 400mm of outside edge. Can be fitted facing forwards on rear mudguards.

Rear position lamps (tail lights) Must be red. Min height to bottom of lamps 250mm max to top 1500mm. Within 400mm of outside edge and at least 600mm between them.

Stop lamps: Same as rear position

Front indicators: Must be amber. Only one each side allowed. Min to bottom of lamp 350mm max to top 1500mm. min 240mm between lamps

Rear indicators: Must be amber 1 or 2 max allowed each side. Heights same as front. Within 400mm of outside edge and min 500mm separation.

Number plate lamp must be white and illuminate plate area.

Rear reflectors: Must be red min to bottom 250mm max to top 900mm within 400mm of outside edge at least 500mm apart

Hazard warning lamps: (use indicators) must have tell tale warning lamp must work with ignition on and in any "off" position e.g park.

Rear fog: Not obligatory but if fitted must be red Min height to bottom of lamp 250mm (not centre of lamp) max to top 1000mm. Must have tell tale warning lamp.

There is no requirement to check which lamps operate in the park position.

It is best to get an accurate weight for unladen as this will affect what you pay for a tax disc. Up to 450 kg unladen trike over 450kg unladen PLG (car). We calculate differnt weights for the test. Unladen is the weight of the vehicle ready to go but not including fuel.

Hope this helps.

Hi Goff

It's pretty much the same as for MoTs. If the test is pre booked (all MSVA tests are) and there is adequte insurance cover in place for the vehicle, and it meets C&U, then it can be ridden to and from the MSVA test station without being registered. Our stations send out an appointment letter so that you have something to show if you get pulled.

Cheers all

Chris

[Goff]

Thanks Chris!

[x-boxtriker]

yes thanks chris i'am in the ball park just need to move the back light's out a wee bit an pull the wires of dip on the center lights
thanks once more will be seeing a colleague of yours on tuesday
boxtriker

[ninjagal600]

Last friday i took my trike for a mot, it failed :eek: ...not too bad just front tyre.....but the mot bloke..said that he could also not pass it because it didnt have springs?shockers..i told him it was a hardtail but he was quite adamant that it needed to have springs fitted and then he would pass it....its aleways been hardtail.....how do i stand?
I going back tomorrow...
cheers

[Mad Dog]

Last friday i took my trike for a mot, it failed :eek: ...not too bad just front tyre.....but the mot bloke..said that he could also not pass it because it didnt have springs?shockers..i told him it was a hardtail but he was quite adamant that it needed to have springs fitted and then he would pass it....its aleways been hardtail.....how do i stand?
I going back tomorrow...
cheers

Go to another MOT station, it don't need springs on rear.

or go back and ask him to get the MOT testers manual out (each station will also have it on CD) and ask him to point out where in the manual it is required to have rear suspension.

[Mad Dog]

By the way,

if your front tyre is so bad it fails an MOT, then you cannot be caring for/maintaining your vehicle very well.

[ninjagal600]

By the way,

if your front tyre is so bad it fails an MOT, then you cannot be caring for/maintaining your vehicle very well.


Just got the trike, didnt realise at the time that the tyre was as he says wobbly/lumpy...i do look after my bike and trike the best i can, tyre wasnt bold he said it was out of shape but i think he was just being picky(doesnt seem to like women).... as i took the trike to our local tyre fitters and they could see noting wrong with it (they fit tyres for police vehicles)....

Still thanks for the help

[Mad Dog]

Sounds like you're getting feckked without the pleasure.

If replacing the front tyre - then a "square profile" sidecar tyre will be the best to fit (provided the dia/rim size is suitable - coz they don't fit all sizes)

Makes a big difference to the handling and drivability.

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Both,

Potential can of worms time here. :confused:

Although the MoT manual now has a section explaining the whys and wherefores of trikes and quads it doesn't give an exemption for trikes from suspension being tested.

Construction and Use Regs exempt "motor cycles" from having suspension here a motor cycle is defined as a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being an invalid carriage, having less tan four wheels and the weight of which unladen does not exceed 410kg.

i will go and have a chat with the guy who deals with MoT policy for these things when he gets back.

Cheers for now

Chris

[MSVA Tech]

Hokay,

Spoke to the MoT policy peeps and the news is good. :D

There is no Reason for Rejection (fail) in the MoT manual for not having "suspension". The tester should be making sure that the method of fixing the axle to frame is not corroded or damaged. Section 2.4 Method of Inspection A. 2.

Can't believe I've had two of these enquiries in the same day (had another on the phone just now).

Good luck with the next MoT, if you have any more probs ask the tester to contact either me or TSPS at VOSA HQ.

Cheers

Chris

[ninjagal600]

thanks Chris, i owe you one.... :D

[dadey]

Chris
After passing a MSVA test does the trike have to be on a Q plate

[titusni]

I've got a V-Max based trike here that went through MSVA over a year ago. Its got twin headlights with H4 bulbs. I'm considering fitting one of those HID retro kits and wondering what the MSVA - and in particular the MOT issues are with HIDs on a motorcycle.

I understand the general HID requirements for vehicles to have auto-levelling gear and headlight washers only apply to factory-fitted HID units and so don't matter for retro fit.

Are there likely to be any issues at MOT time if I use one of the H4 headlights for HID low beam and the other H4 for high beam? What if I splash out for one of the high/low in-a-single-H4 HID kits so then I've dual HID high/low? Also what about colour temperature and legality? 4300k is the brighttest (most white) whereas many of the H4 hi/lo units are 6000k or 8000k (purple/white).

I don't want to splash out loads of money and then find its gonna fail MOT.

Anyone on here fitted HID to a bike/trike at all?

I'm thinking of something like this: "http://www.hids4u.co.uk/product_details.asp?id=6" fitted to dual "streetfighter" headlight units.

[MSVA Tech]

Dadey, I think that DVLA issue a Q mark to most vehicles following MSVA unless it is a brand new vehicle built from the ground up. DVLA do a leaflet (INF 26) which lists all the different ways they treat radically altered etc machines.

Titus can't see anything in the MoT manual that prevents retro fitting HID lamps except that the colour must be substantially white. They are not allowed for MSVA but that's in the past for you. It might be worth checking with DVTA (028 9068 1831) because I believe their MoT can be different to the GB version.

Cheers both

Chris

[Gonzo]

hi is it true that all welding has to be mig or tig or can i use mma thanks steve

[titusni]

Titus can't see anything in the MoT manual that prevents retro fitting HID lamps except that the colour must be substantially white. They are not allowed for MSVA but that's in the past for you. It might be worth checking with DVTA (028 9068 1831) because I believe their MoT can be different to the GB version.


Thanks Chris - I called DVTA and "as long as it meets the height requirements it should be okay" was the response :D Didn't sound a very authoritive answer.

When you say the colour must be substantially blue does this rule out 8000K units which tend to have a blue tint? Many/most of the BiXenon (H4 units with HID for both dip and full beam) seem to be 8000K...

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Gonzo,

No we don't specify the method used. I've had a few phone calls lately asking if the regs are about to change and will all welding have to be done by someone with a VM20( :confused: ). If they are no one's told me.

I would suggest that you seek the advice of others on here who have vast amounts of knowledge and experience about the metalsmiths art. Whats best will depend on the materials you intend to use. Have a shufty through some of the older threads I'm pretty sure there was some good stuff about welding from Blackjack and others.

Cheers

Chris

[Gonzo]

The welding is not a problem was a coded welder in a past life thanks any way .

[Monkeyman_blue]

Hi Chris

Can you tell me are mirrors compulsory on motorcycles/trikes that have to go through MSVA test, also if exhaust system is required to be B.S. or E marked and whether lights and indicators are required to be E marked, only I thought that the purpose of MSVA was for testing if these items comply to EEC standards and a lot of after market items still do not carry such markings.

Cheers

[titusni]

Ok trike lights: I'll give you the spiel straight from the book

Dipped beam headlamps: 2 and only 2 allowed. Min height 500mm (to centre of lamp) As the trike is over 1700mm wide the lamps must be within 400mm of the extreme outside edge of the vehicle and there must be 500mm between them (get the outside edge bit right and the rest will follow). So your best bet would be to disconnect the feed to the dips on the two lamps on the forks.

Main beam: keep the mains in the outside lamps connected as the obligatory lamps and have the two inner ones as optional main beams.


Hi Chris - another MOT/lighting regs rather than MSVA question.

On a trike that's narrow enough to not need 2 headlights (its passed MSVA anyway) would it be correct at MOT if it had a single 7" headlight for dip and the same headlight PLUS two smaller spotlights on either side of the main headlight for full beam?

Just playing with my options for lighting...

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Mm B and welcome to the forum.

Yes mirrors are a requirement on bikes and trikes for MSVA, 2 needed (one each side).

Exhaust silencers for two wheelers need to be permanently marked with a minimum of the manufacturers trade name or mark. This can be the manufacturer of the bike or the silencer. Trikes do not need marked silencers. In both cases the noise emitted will be measured. Max limit for trikes and bikes over 175cc is 99 dbA.

Lamps do not need to be e or E marked for MSVA. MSVA is a national scheme with its own regulations passed through the GB parliament. (NI has it's own scheme). These regulations are based on the requirements of the various EC technical directives that go to makeup EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval, but also incorporate elements of other national legislation (Road Vehicle Lighting Regs for example). Lamps are checked for position, colour , function etc. So our examiners assess lamps against the requirements and if they're ok they pass, if not they don't. There is nothing to prevent you using e marked lamps if you wish but they will still be checked because e marking doesn't guarantee that a lamp is put in the right place to perform the correct funtion.

Hope this helps


Hi Titus,

The MoT applies to obligatory headlamps, so your centre lamp would be your obligatory dip and main (acceptable if trike is less than 1700mm wide). The two other lamps would be classed as optional main beam lamps. RVLR does limit the number of main beam lamps as long as they all go out when you switch to dip.

Cheers

Chris

[Yoda]

hello chris
just to cheer you up for today, have you seen my MSVA Friendly Yokes
http://www.100-biker.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=139099&postcount=1

Yoda

:) :) :)

[MSVA Tech]

Sweet!

:D :D :D :D

[Monkeyman_blue]

Hi Chris

Thanks for the response but what an answer, I needed to know more so had a further look on the net and found some answers here:
Type approval 2005.pdf (http://www.vca.gov.uk/downloads/files/vca005.pdf)
Amazing how no approval marks are needed for headlights, but why oh why do they always talk about other directives/regulations etc without including those directives/regulations in the document that you are reading.

Anyways Thanks

[titusni]

The two other lamps would be classed as optional main beam lamps. RVLR does limit the number of main beam lamps as long as they all go out when you switch to dip.


Thanks Chris. I assume you meant "...RVLR does *NOT* limit the number of main beam lamps....."

Is there somewhere online I can download a copy of the RVLR regulations?

[Chimp]

Hi Chris,
I'm new to this so bear with me.
I am triking my 1971 beetle,can I still have the beach b'stard look under the new laws and will I be able to keep the tax exempt registration?
The only foreign parts will be the front end,Thanks. :confused:

[MSVA Tech]

Well spotted Titus :D Can't find RVLR to download anywhere (mainly cos it's HMSO that sells it I reckon) There is a specific NI version but I guess you'd have to buy that off DOENI or DVTA :(

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Chimp, welcome to the forum.

Have we already spoken on the phone about this?

The final decision about what happens to your reg mark rests with the DVLA so I would suggest you contact them before you start chopping up your beetle. Beach bastards are fine if they meet the MSVA requirements, we don't discriminate on the basis of parental heritage :D

DVLA do a leaflet that explains about rebuilt/radically altered vehicles (INF 26)I'm sure the info is on their website too.

If you go ahead and need any more advice you've certainly come to the right place. There is a wealth of very experinced, skillful people on here who are always happy to share their knowledge. That said it is customary to introduce yourself and get a virtual round in. I know it's early but mines a pint of HSB ta :D :D :D

cheers

Chris

[ratwing]

Are these legal/would a trike pass the MSVA with them?

[titusni]

Chris

this week's MCN had a article about apparently in 2007 the noise levels for new cars and bikes exhausts coming down from 80dB to 74dB.

However later in the article it went on to talk about police being able to impound vehicles for excessive noise - which seems to imply this "74dB" level could be enforced on vehicles of any age.

Isn't the MSVA cutoff is still 99dB? It was 18 months ago...

Also, AFAIK, traffic branch aren't issued with decibel meters so I don't see how they could enforce any such ruling.

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Ratwing, the main problem with wheelie bars that I can see is that you may go over the 4 metre maximum length. Otherwise they would be assessed as part of the vehicle.

Hi Titus, read the bit in MC Lies but haven't been able to find any proposals to change noise limits in the euro babble as yet.

The national motorcycling strategy put out by the government is concerned with localised nuisance from illegal cans and bad maintenance.

The latest ec directive is concerned with after market replacement catalytic converters.

For whole vehicle type approval there are two seperate tests, one is with the vehicle being accelerated down a test track with the noise meters 7.5 metres either side of the testrack centre line. It is during this test that the noise level must not exceed 80 dbA.

The second test is the static test this measures the noise with the vehicle stationary and the engine revved to a percentage of where it makes max power. The noise meter for this test is placed 0.5 metres from the exhaust outlet(s). This is the test we use in MSVA, for whole vehicle type approval the figure is just recorded as the drive by test will already have been passed. For MSVA we have the 99dbA limit for bikes over 175cc and all trikes.

As an example of the differences; the Kwak ZX-10R has a drive by figure of 79.1 db(A) and a stationary figure of 97 db(A).

We can only hope that as the gob behind the scare story is a tory lord the goverment will pay their usual amount of interest in what he says ;)

Cheers all

Chris

[titusni]

Ok trike lights: I'll give you the spiel straight from the book

Dipped beam headlamps: 2 and only 2 allowed. Min height 500mm (to centre of lamp) As the trike is over 1700mm wide the lamps must be within 400mm of the extreme outside edge of the vehicle and there must be 500mm between them (get the outside edge bit right and the rest will follow). So your best bet would be to disconnect the feed to the dips on the two lamps on the forks.


Hi Chris, another lighting question - again more of a lighting regs one than MSVA.

For a trike less than 1700mm wide with 2 headlights fitted, can the headlights (both dip & full beam) be arranged vertically or do they have to be side-by-side?

Thanks

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Titus,

Stacking a pair of lamps should not be a problem on a vehicle that is not required to have two obligatory headlamps so long as they are on the centre line of the trike.

Cheers

Chris

[Borg]

Hi Titus,

Stacking a pair of lamps should not be a problem on a vehicle that is not required to have two obligatory headlamps so long as they are on the centre line of the trike.

Cheers

Chris


so 3 lights, one main headlight and 2 smaller 'bates' style head lights either side is not allowed, if all 3 use main and dip ?

o0o style ?

wwat about a rear fog light. Mine didn't have one for the SVA but I'm told it needs one now for the next MOT.

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Borg,

Easy one first. you don't need a rear fog lamp on a trike for MoT if the tester says otherwise ask them to look at section 9.1, page 3 of the MoT manual. This lists the lamps required on trikes and quads.

Dipped beam headlamps. You cannot have more than two dipped beam lamps under any regs I know of except to fit a matching pair for use on the continent. These are only allowed to operate if the uk one s cannot be switched on at the same time. So only two dipped beam at any one time are allowed to be illuminated.

The best option (IMHO) for the main lamp flanked by a pair of bates is to have the centre as dip and main and the others as optional main beams.

Cheers

Chris

ps what part of the green and baggy man at Q&M were you in?

[Borg]

Cool thanks. I think I'll wire them up to all work on main and dip. It's very dark around here on the road, no street lights and un hook it for the MOT :)

Safety comes first in my mind here

I was going to have 5 lights on the front 3 main/dip and 2 spots.

There's a lot of blind tractor drivers and such around here.



Re:
ps what part of the green and baggy man at Q&M were you in?

PM me about that :)

[titusni]

I was going to have 5 lights on the front 3 main/dip and 2 spots.


Have you found a source for any good (and cheap-ish) spots? Am thinking of a couple of 35W spots to mount on fork legs.......the US stuff is all mega buck$.....

[Borg]

I got 2 SS spots from Draken1 for a nice price, small neat and 55w bulbs fitted, but they can be changed. After putting them on my Trike though I might get some Orange bulbs and use them as HUGE indicators on the front :) as I'm now fitting 2 small bates style spots.

Going to run them all through relays though :) through a fused wire direct from the battery

o0o
o o

[Borg]

Was going to hang the smaller ones down under the 'Bates' to make the blinkers

[titusni]

I got 2 SS spots from Draken1 for a nice price, small neat and 55w bulbs fitted, but they can be changed. After putting them on my Trike though I might get some Orange bulbs and use them as HUGE indicators on the front :) as I'm now fitting 2 small bates style spots.


35W bulbs in each spot is about as much power as I could risk. Ideally I'd like some small SS ones with clear lens covers - like these:

http://secure.electronicart.com/www_motolight_com/viewItem.asp?idProduct=1065

that mount onto the forks. But I'd rather not pay the likes of $320 for them...


Going to run them all through relays though :) through a fused wire direct from the battery


Been there, done that - headlights are wired that way. Will plumb the spots into this.

[Borg]

Front brake light switch ? needed or not

[gsdonkey]

Hi There,does Anyone Know If Any Of The Parts Of A Gs550 Will Interchange With A Gsx550ie Exhausts,front Foot Rests Ect Ect,cheers

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Borg,

Soz for the delay had a few days off.

Stop lamps have to emit a steady red light when any service brake is applied so if the brake system has ndependant front and rear brakes both must operate the stop lamps.

Cheers

Chris


GSdonkey - haven't a clue mate long time since I had a GS (850 back in the early 80s) try re posting your question as a new thread :)

[Borg]

Bugger, to late now I'm not stripping the wiring out now :(


Thanks though for the reply much appreciated.

[Yoda]

are red indictor lights legal in this country?
have they ever been legal?

Yoda

[dracken1]

having owned a lot of yank tanks.
i used to get no probs at all once.
but now i know they have to be fitted with amber ones.

and just because you live in SOUTH birmingham you will still have to comply with that law.
naaaa naa.
and the punishment in wales for having red indicators is

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Yoda

Vehicles first used before 01 September 1965 can have white front and red rear indicators anything after that and they have to be amber.

Cheers

Chris

ps Draken you got any of those in stock? be good for clearing the road ahead! :D

[Yoda]

Cheers Guys

Yoda

[excalibur]

Sorry if this has already been covered in the last 16 pages........but seatbelts.

My understanding is that if a trike is fitted with a seat, that you sit astride with the passenger behind the driver then no seatbelts are required.

Is this still the case?

[MSVA Tech]

Hi M8,

No probs I can't remember if it's been asked here before and can't be bothered to go back and check :)

I'll give you the spiel straight from the book.

Seat Belts and Anchorages

This inspection does not apply to tricycles and quadricycles without bodies that have driver/passengers that sit astride (immediately in front/behind each other along the longitudinal plane) onsaddle type seats.

Additional seats to the side of, and non sit astride seats directly behind the driver/passenger, are required to be fitted with a lap belt.
Hope this covers what you need to know, basically if the rider and pillion are sitting in a similar way to being on a bike no belts needed.

Cheers

Chris

[excalibur]

Cheers for that Chris....I looked on the net and there was conflicting information.

Do you know if its the same for MOT?

I dont want to get through the MSVA to fail at MOT because of different rulings

[MSVA Tech]

No probs, happy to help (s**t sounds like I work for ASDA :D )

The story is the same for MoT, make sure the tester has looked at Section 9.5 of the MoT manual relating to seat belts on trikes and quads.

Cheers

Chris

[excalibur]

More questions (can you tell i'm about to make a start on it)

What is this I have heard about having to have a key that folds or something?

I was planning on building a frame something along the lines of this
http://www.highwayhuntersmcc.co.uk/Poddy's%20Trike.jpg

with the gearstick as shown, and the clocks, light switches, ignition etc in front on a panel between the two downtubes.

Will this be OK or is there things I have to watch out for?

[MSVA Tech]

The ignition key is one of the specific requirements in the external projections part of the test. Basically it needs to have a protective cap i.e. the bit you hold covered in plastic. This doesn't apply to folding, hidden (not in front of the rider), removable, or flush with the surface keys.

The gear lever won't come into it unless the examiners reckons that it is so pointed or sharp it is likely to increase the risk of serious injury to anyone in the event of an accident.

Cheers

ps top birthday or crimbo pressie the MSVA Inspection Manual on £30 inc p&p, all you ever wanted to know about MSVA ;)

pps good luck with the build :D

[excalibur]

Thanks mate......and I will put the manual on my chrimbo list.

Toss up between steel tube and a manual at the moment(tight budget).....you can guess which won ;)

[100%Pat]

Without being rude... This is what I posted at the start of this thread please take note ...

"Welcome Chris, thanks for making the effort to do this for us, I'm sure everyone will appreciate it.
So anyone with trike MSVA questions you can ask them here.
Please DO NOT waste Chris's time with asking stuff you would know if you werent too tight to buy the manual, please only use this for GENUINE queries!"

That is stuff you dont understand when you've read the book!!!

[excalibur]

Sorry pat....I have tried to limit it to a couple of questions so as not to take the piss. Thing is being a biker with no bike and on the dole you sometimes have to take a few liberties. I can assure you as soon as I have a spare few bob I will get the book, its just I didnt want to make a start on the basic bits then find I had to start again.

Desperate times....desperate measures I'm afraid

[100%Pat]

Sorry mate but I think you have to sort your priorities, if you are skint and on the dole and trying to build a bike/trike, then surely the first thing you need is the manual that will tell you how/what you need to do it within the law.....
Its money well spent believe me, why start building something when you dont know the law? Then you'll save yourself endless grief and rebuilding cos it will be right ans legal the first time... :D

[Mad Dog]

Pat is oh so right in such a mumsy way.

If a person is planning to build a trike like the one in the picture above.
Then, the cost of such is gonna be around 1500 to 3000 pounds by the time it is finished.

If that person cannot afford the £30 for the MSVA manual in the first place, how are they gonna afford even the starter motor for that engine let alone the shiney wheels.

To my mind, the most cost effective investment in any ground-up project has to be the MSVA manual.
Perhaps they should produce it in Chrome plating or Matt Black, maybe sell a few more that way.

MD
:D

[excalibur]

OK, probably didnt put it quiet right. I have built a few in the past, before all this MSVA stuff, and know most of what is requiered, it was just a couple of things that I wanted to be sure of. As for 1500 to 3000 for the frame, well I'm building it myself, its not going to be HUGE and about £100 of box section will sort that.

I already have the starter motor......and the engine to go with it LOL, plus front end. Its not going to be a bling one, was just showing the style of frame.

I remember my first one back in 85......all in, registered and everything for £70.....those were the days

[MSVA Tech]

Hi all,

Excalibur, wasn't trying to have a dig about the manual, I jus reckon it would be easier to have it to hand. Feel free to ask what you like and good luck with the build. I know from the start that Pat was keen for questions to be kept relevant etc, and I do appreciate that. But as time has gone by I've seen what a friendly and helpful bunch people are on here and I'm very happy to be able to play some small part in it.

This is gettin a bit fluffy and we're supposed to be big butch and oily handed here in the workshop. :o

That said I'm going to be away next week dog sitting for friends so bung the questions on and I'll answer when I get back.

Cheers :D

Chris

[shaggy696969]

I'm Triking me max.... simple bolt on back axle affair.... completely reversable prob about a hour to change, so will it need sva testing, will i need to have the log book changed to tricycle , if i don't what do i insure it as, ie if it is registered as a motorcycle is it insured as a motorcycle or will i have to re register each time i take on or off the rear axle? Also my max which apparently may or may not need sva testing as there is no frame alterations as such and the rest is all v max was registered in 1987 which apparently means may or may not need hazards..... whats your take on this ?

Fuck me thats a gob full.

Any one with a clue cos i haven't.

[excalibur]

From what I understand no MSVA is required if the frame is not modified. I think it comes under the DVLA radicaly modified vehicles thing with points awarded for keeping existing components........and an unmodded frame gets most points.

What I dont know, and would appreciate someone telling me, is do you have to get some kind of an inspection done to prove that it hasnt been modified, or do you just declare the changes on your log book

[MSVA Tech]

This sounds like what DVLA call a kit conversion. They do a leaflet (INF 26) which explains the various categories they have. I believe the info is also on their website. The points system is used for what DVLA call "Radically Altered Vehicles"

The blurb (shortened to leave out the car bits says " Kit Conversions - This is where a kit of new parts is added to an existing vehicle. The general appearance of the vehicle will change and result in a revised description on the registration certificate (V5C). A vehicle will retain its donor registration mark if the original unmodified chassis and two other major components are used."

So if all you do is add a bolt on rear end you shouldn't need MSVA. You may need to get a new MoT relevant to the new class of vehicle and you will need to change the details on the V5C to show that the machine is now a tricycle. You will probably need to get the tax disc changed as the taxation class will go from bicycle to tricycle or PLG (if the unladen weight is over 450kg) so a weighbridge ticket would also be a good idea. You need to tell DVLA everytime you change from bike to trike and vice versa. If you get pulled and the machine is not as described on the V5C or the tax disc you may be liable to prosecution.

As a trike the vehicle will need hazards, this applies to all vehicles first used from 01 April 1986.

DVLA may want to inspect the vehicle to verify that the vehicle meets the MSVA exempt criteria.

Reckon that about covers it.

Cheers

Chris

[shaggy696969]

Thank you very much... most informative. :D

[ratwing]

Hi, I've a trike thats only just under the max. weight to get tricycle tax. I want to add a pillion seat/backrest/footboards which will definately put it over weight. I've been told some older Reliants called the spare an optional extra to keep in the (old) under 8 cwt band so if this is the case can I make the pillion seat etc as a bolt-on detachable subframe kind of thing and still say the trike is in the tricycle weight band?

[shaggy696969]

Dont tell em and take it off come mot time...lol shhhhhhhhh ! :cool:

[Defrog]

Hi All

Could you tell me what the MSVA regs are for fuel tanks and filler caps on Enduro bikes and trikes.

Many Thanks

[MSVA Tech]

The rear edge of the filler cap is checked that it does not protrude above the upper surface of the fuel tank more than 15mm and is smooth or perceptibly spherical.

If it does protrude more than 15mm it must be fitted with a protective device.
This is for fuel tanks fitted in front of the rider.

Filler caps are also checked for security and a positive seal when they are closed.


Fuel tanks and other fuel system components are checked for leaks, security, fouling by moving parts of the vehicle, proximity to heat sources, not subject to a corosive environment and suitability, by design, to adequately carry out the function for which they are fitted.

[Chimp]

Hi Chris,
is it o.k to use a 3 point harness as a seat belt for the rear seat of my trike?

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Chimp,

The minimum requirements for forward facing seats; that aren't, sit astride, saddle type seats on the trikes longitudinal centre line; are 2 anchorage points and two point lap belts.

You can of course improve on this by fitting 3 point belts or harnesses.

The anchorage points and surrounding structure need to be of adequate strength to withstand the load likely to be imposed in the event of a frontal impact. If the anchorage points are on the seat then the seat mountings will also be considered.

The belt needs to be "E", "e", "DOT", or "BS" marked OR have equivalent characteristics.

The effective upper anchorage point must be at least 140mm out from the seat centre line and at least 450mm above what is known as the reference point. The reference point is the highest front point of a rectangle 136mm x 53mm high resting on the seat base and touching the backrest.

Cant upload the picture it's too big if you pm your email address to me I'll send it on.

Hope this hasn't caused too much confusion. :confused: :)

Cheers

Chris

[madtriker]

I've heard that according to MOT testing a vehicle requires mudguards when it's wheels are protruding from it's bodywork, so if a trikes got no bodywork does that mean it doesn't need mudguards? thanks!

[titusni]

I'm getting to the end of life with the Dunlop Sportsmax II D204F 120/70ZR17 on the front of my trike (GSX-R1100 front wheel).

Whilst looking around for see what tyre options I might have I found an Internet chatroom for Goldwing trike owners in USA where they were recommending people to fit Michelin Pilot Activ REAR tyres or Bridgestone BT45. They mentioned running the rear tyres with the direction marking going the "wrong" way.

They even seem to have some input on this from Michelin themselves:

"Michelin recommends running their tire "backwards", that is the tire is mounted on the front wheel rim so that it spins the opposite direction it would have if it were mounted on the rear of a motorcycle. I don't think Bridgestone will even talk to anyone running one of their tires on a trike."

Anyone tried this? Is this likely to pass MOT?

Just trying to see what my tyre options are maybe improve handling (17" wheel so no square profile tyres to choose from).

[MSVA Tech]

As long as the rear tyres are radial you can fit cross ply, bias or radial to the front. There is a check for correct fitting with the fail saying " a tyre not fitted in compliance with the manufacturers sidewall instruction, eg an asymmetric tyre with a sidewall marked 'outer' fitted with the marking to the inner side of the wheel.

It doesn't actually mention direction of rotation or tyres designated front or rear fitment only but could still mean a fail.

[titusni]

As long as the rear tyres are radial you can fit cross ply, bias or radial to the front.

Rears are Mastercraft Avenger G/T 265/15R50 which are radial.

There is a check for correct fitting with the fail saying " a tyre not fitted in compliance with the manufacturers sidewall instruction, eg an asymmetric tyre with a sidewall marked 'outer' fitted with the marking to the inner side of the wheel.

It doesn't actually mention direction of rotation or tyres designated front or rear fitment only but could still mean a fail.

Sounds like you're not sure - how would I find out for definate?

[shaggy696969]

make sure of the speed rating of the tyre .... gold wings are slower than your max .

[MSVA Tech]

Ok, double checked with our MoT policy expert. Yes it would fail in GB but they suggest you check with DVTA as their MoT manual is not a mirror image of ours.

[titusni]

Ok, double checked with our MoT policy expert. Yes it would fail in GB but they suggest you check with DVTA as their MoT manual is not a mirror image of ours.

As my insurance company is in GB I'm sure they'd use GB MoT policies to decide things in case of an accident.... :-(

So is a rear tyre (clearly marked as being a rear) fitted to a front wheel with the direction indicator the CORRECT way round ok for MoT or is that still a problem?

[MSVA Tech]

If it says rear on the sidewall and its fitted to the front that still doesn't comply with the manufacturers instructions.

I imagine that in the event of a crash it would also be picked up by anyone carrying out a post collision inspection. :(

[titusni]

If it says rear on the sidewall and its fitted to the front that still doesn't comply with the manufacturers instructions.

I imagine that in the event of a crash it would also be picked up by anyone carrying out a post collision inspection. :(

Doh! So, so I'm stuck with 120/70ZR17 front tyres then............just need to figure out which brand then is more squarish profile/deepest tread, etc...

[baldyshinehead]

Hi, looking through the posts i saw someone ask if a trike has to have rear mudgaurds, but no replys to it ??
Can you tell me if they are needed or can you run the rear wheels bare ?

[MSVA Tech]

Mudguards are not a specific requirement for MSVA but they are an in use requirement under Construction and Use regs.

They also make a handy place to hang your lights off :)

[baldyshinehead]

They also make a handy place to hang your lights off :)[/QUOTE]


ooops, didnt think off that :o
thanks

[BikerGran]

Titusni - dunno if it's any help to you but I have a BT45 on the front of my GT550 trike - a front one. Mine's a 19in wheel which restricts my tyre choice, don't know if they do a 17in one but it was one of the few that come in 19in so I guess it's likely.

[titusni]

Hi Chris

I'm interesting in your comments on the chat thread "classics and exhausts", specifically my comments about police pink slips and proof that an exhaust is legal...

[glyn]

Hiya Chris,If the MOT class for trikes is 3/4 does that mean you have to have a full ramp setup for testing or can you use class 1/2 equipment,We are looking into starting a class 1/2 test station and we cant get astraight answer from the equipment suppliers,They seem to think its possible to test each wheel individually on the single roller rolling road but wont commit at this time.
Thanks Glyn.

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Glyn,

A Test Station can only test those classes it is authorised for so if you get Class 1/2 you won't be able to test trikes.

To get the full gen on setting up for MoT you will need to contact your nearest VOSA enforcement office. This should be listed in the phone book under either VOSA or DfT.

Or, if you let me know your post code I can find out which area office you need to contact.

Cheers

Chris

[addjunkie]

is it acceptable for trike sva /mot to use double bulldog clamps on parking brake cables, or do they have to be properly swaged.

[titusni]

Chris

I recently had a look at Chapter 9 of the MOT guide which covers trike and quad specific testing. I still don't see ANYTHING that indicates that a parking brake must operate on both wheels of an axle.

To put this confusion to bed once and for all is there any chance you could find out the section number/text in the MOT manual that states this requirement?

Also, what section/page of the MSVA handbook states this as well?

My trike has now been through an MSVA and 3 MOTs all with the parking brake operating only the nearside rear wheel. As the trike's now in bits getting an overhaul this is the time to change the handbrake if needed. However my trike builder still says there's no requirement to change it...

[MSVA Tech]

Addjunkie,

For MSVA we work on the principle of "would a vehicle manufacturer use this?" The examiner has to check that all braking system components (including cables) are present, complete, secure, by design suitable to adequately carry out the function for which they are fitted, made of a material of sufficient strength and/or durability to resist the stresses, vibration, corrosion and ageing that it will be subject to in normal use and not obstructed in travel.

If an examiner is not happy with something the onus is on the presenter to prove compliance. I don't think that bulldog clamps would be acceptable.

For Mot the tester is mainly looking for frayed cables or weakening of any part so they would most likely accept it.


Titusni

MoT Section 9 sub sections are to be read in conjunction with the relevant main section. In section 3.1 Method of Inspection 1 states " Check that the vehicle has a parking brake designed to prevent, with a three wheeld vehicle, at least one wheel from turning"

MSVA manual Section 16 4. c) states "a parking brake device that operates on the wheels of at least one axle"

So for MoT the park brake can operate on only one wheel.

For MSVA the parking brake must operate on both rear wheels or the front wheel. (on a bike trike).

Hope this clarifies things.

[titusni]

Titusni

MoT Section 9 sub sections are to be read in conjunction with the relevant main section. In section 3.1 Method of Inspection 1 states " Check that the vehicle has a parking brake designed to prevent, with a three wheeld vehicle, at least one wheel from turning"

MSVA manual Section 16 4. c) states "a parking brake device that operates on the wheels of at least one axle"

So for MoT the park brake can operate on only one wheel.

For MSVA the parking brake must operate on both rear wheels or the front wheel. (on a bike trike).

Hope this clarifies things.

Thanks Chris

So then for MOTs there's no reason why a trike with the parking brake operating on only 1 rear wheel should ever fail......which is great for those of us who already have trikes on the road like this :D

As for MSVA, well first of all your quote "a parking brake device that operates on the wheels of at least one axle" doesn't say *ALL* the wheels of an axle......indeed from a single English language perspective I argue that that simply states that a parking brake is required (I'm assuming this quote comes from a table marked Requirements) and that the "that operates on the wheels of at least one axle" is simply stating that the parking brake must operate on (at least one) wheels - rather than, for silly example, lower "feet" with friction material down to the ground to keep vehicle from moving.

The fact that this quote is so vague is proven by the fact that my trike and several others others I know about all passed MSVA with parking brake on only 1 rear wheel...if its not clear enough for the MSVA guys over here to understand then how is Joe Bloggs trike builder supposed to know?

[addjunkie]

number plates..........on the rear of a trike........what size do they need to be, ie a car sized square on or a bike sized square one.

thanks for the earlier answer most helpful........

[MSVA Tech]

Trikes can have bike sized plates at the rear.

If you want to keep to the legal minimum the dimensions are



Character height 64mm
Character width (except fig 1 or letter I) 44mm
Character stroke 10mm
Space between characters 10mm
Space between groups 30mm
Top bottom and side margins (min) 11mm
Space between vertical lines 13mm

[dracken1]

if the book says for the msva that the parking brake must operate on the wheels of the axle then i would read it to mean both rear wheels,
it doesn't say that it should operate on a wheel, it says wheels :)

[shaggy696969]

that is the way i'd read it too , if you use the axle with 1 wheel on it .... ie the ffront in most cases then the 1 wheel , but if you use the axle with 2 wheels on it .... ie the rear then both should work. you have two then use them .

[titusni]

that is the way i'd read it too , if you use the axle with 1 wheel on it .... ie the ffront in most cases then the 1 wheel , but if you use the axle with 2 wheels on it .... ie the rear then both should work. you have two then use them .

I'd still argue that the MSVA text as it stands is open to interpretation. It seems a very simple change to make to the text to make it 100% clear what they mean , for example just add the word "all":

"a parking brake device that operates on ALL the wheels of at least one axle"

Chris has already clarified this is an MSVA issue, not a MOT one so those of us with existing trikes on the road don't have to worry.

One last question on this topic directed at Chris - is there any reference to parking brakes and their operation in the Construction & Use regulations?

[titusni]

Hi again Chris

I've been chatting to someone else on another forum and your mates in the VOSA MOT section are claiming that the bit in MOT Section 3 about "3 wheel vehicles only needing parking brake on a single wheel" was intended for bodied vehicles only......so they're claiming 2 rear wheel parking brake IS needed.

Doh! Why can't they say what they mean and mean what they say in the test manual.....

[MSVA Tech]

Hi All,

Titus with regard to your post before last; as can be seen from what Shaggy and Draken both said anything written is open to interpretation. Every time we run a course for new examiners I always get told that the manual would be better if.... the thing is it's usually one or two people with everybody else quite happy with the content. If I kept changing the manual every five minutes I would then be accused of having the goal posts on castors. One of the main reasons my job exixsts is to be the (almost) final arbiter on how examinations are carried out. There are undoubtedly parts of the EC directives and our own regulations that seem ambiguous, they're written by lawyers not engineers. From the outset we've wanted to try and keep the scheme as simple and straightforward as possible. We've seen how car SVA has gone and definitely don't want to go there.

C&U refers mainly to vehicles meeting the relevant EC directive cars from April 83 and bikes from May 95. What of trikes you ask , well they could be a motorcycle (sub 450kg as per the tax disc palaver) or a car. They are listed as cat L5 for the EC regs so that should cover all trikes. And the directives say that the parking brake has to act on the "wheels of one axle".

On to your second point the bodied vehicles definition in the MoT manual was added to take account of the the different mirror requiremnts. The braking requirement for three wheeled vehicles are MoT: one wheel, MSVA/type approval the wheels of one axle bodied or otherwise doesn't come into it. Ask your mate who exactly and from what VOSA MoT section they work for. The advice from the guys who write the MoT manual is "if it's in the book apply it if it isn't don't make it up.

Cheers

Chris

ps Trying to make sense of the C&U and all it's amendments nearly fried what little brain I have, give us a break for a couple of days :D ;) :D

[manky monkey]

Hi Chris. Some advice on tyre ratings please. I've read somewhere about trike front tyres having to be of a certain weight rating. Can you just tell me what make & model of tyre would be suitable for a light, single seater GS850 Suzi trike? (19" wheel). Thanks.

[MSVA Tech]

Hi MM,

Tyre load capabilities are tied in to their size. The original front tyre on the GS was 3.50-19,(nostalgia moment had an 850 in the 80s, still the comfiest seat i've ridden on) this has a load index of 54 which equals a max load of 212kg. In metric terms this had a 93mm section width and an overall diameter of 675mm. This tyre requires a 1.85, 2.15 or 2.50 rim (rim size should be stamped/cast into the rim)

The nearest modern metric equivalents are

90/90-19 load index 52 (200kg) 90mm section width 645 dia rims 2.15, 2.50

100/90-19 li 57 (230kg) 101mm section 663 dia rims 2.50, 2.75 (this size should also be available in a reinforced version with a 63 li (272kg))

110/90-19 li 62 (265kg) 109mm section 681 dia rims 2.5, 2.75. 3.00

The best way to check what you need would be to stick the front wheel on a weigh bridge, industrial scales, or a roller brake tester with the trike fully laden ( bums on seats, rally kit etc strapped on, full tank of fuel) this will give you the best indication of the maximum static load on the front tyre. I guess weight transfer under braking is built into the static loads.

Hope this helps, if you need anymore info give us a shout.

Cheers

Chris

[manky monkey]

Hmm. So the front tyre doesn't have to support the entire weight of the trike then, only that proporton of it that bears on the front end. I think the present tyre has a 57 index, (230 kg). No idea if that's likely to be O.K for a lightweight single seater? Was kinda hoping you could say "Buy this make & model of tyre & it's guaranteed to pass" but I guess life's not that simple! Anyone got a very big set of bathroom scales?!

[Chimp]

Hi Chris,
On the subject of trike front ends,what is the position regards front suspension.Just seen a trike with what looked like two scaffold poles as front forks,definately solid(no suspension) but as they were chromed they looked bloody good.Are they legal and more importantly are theysafe?

[MSVA Tech]

MM, a 57 tyre is most likely to be ok, most of the weight will be carried by the rear axle especially when it's loaded (as a very very rough guide load is usually split about20% front 80% rear).

Chimp,

MSVA doesn't look for suspension, construction and use exempts motor cycles (which includes trikes up to 450kg unladen in it's definition) from the requirement to have springs between each wheel and the frame.

As to safety I don't think I would want my directional control at the mercy of every lump bump and pothole. :eek:

[manky monkey]

Thanks Chris. I've got what I assume is the corect MSVA manual -a yellow plastic ring binder jobbie, but someone told me last night that theirs is a proper bound book format. Am I working to the right set of regs? Or have they got the posh collectors edition?!

[MSVA Tech]

MM, you have the correct one (well, mine's in a yellow ring binder) I dont know about any bound copies. We use the ring binder format so that any amendments and updates are easy to do.

The publication date is on each page the originals are dated August 2003 and the updates June 2005.

Cheers

Chris

[RebuiltYorkie]

Hiya Chris

I did post this on another thread but no replies! Do you know?

Right I've said before, I've got the handbrake fitted to brake both rear wheels set up new position for lever, fitted it works well... Then I noticed after setting up /adjusting the rear brakes that both the cable and rod sections of the handbrake are resting/touching on the tail pipes when in full braked position.

I tried to set up a couple of small pulley wheels to act as steady's that push/keep both the cable and rod away from tail pipes, but this seems to push the cable, etc too low which means they could be damaged by debriss an' stuff, on the road..

Would/could this mean a fail?

PS the cable section dose have a outer metal cable sheath...cover? Coss she a bike trike handbrake will only be used at parking! No hill starts!

[MSVA Tech]

Hey ho Yorkie,

This is from section 3.5 of the MoT manual, normal text the check, italics the reason for rejection.

Method of Inspection Reason for rejection

1. Check the mechanical brake components for

a. chafed rods or levers a. a brake rod or lever reduced in thickness by more than 1/3rd

b. corroded, frayed or knotted cables b. a brake cable corroded, knotted or with wires broken so that it is weakened significantly

c. free rotation of clevis joints between cables and levers (this includes cable linkages between brake pedals and remote mounted servos) c. seizure of clevis joint pivots which causes strain or wear to cables to an extent likely to lead to premature failure of the cable

d. a corroded or damaged rod, lever or linkage. Wear in eyes of relay levers, clevis joints, stationary pins or pivots d. serious weakening of any part due to excessive wear, damage or corrosion

e. abnormal movement of levers, indicating maladjustment or excessive wear e. abnormal movement of levers indicating maladjustment or excessive wear

f. security and excessive wear of brake linings/pads f. a brake lining or pad insecure or less than 1.5mm thick at any point

g. contamination of brake discs and drums by leaking brake fluid, oil or grease g. a brake disc or drum contaminated by brake fluid, oil or grease

h. the condition and security of brake drums and discs h. a brake disc or drum insecure, cracked or excessively scored, pitted or worn

i. presence and security of brake back plates/callipers i. a brake back plate or calliper securing device loose or missing

j. restriction of free movement j. restricted free movement of brake components

k. presence and security of locking devices k. a locking device missing or insecure

Note: On some vehicles, locking devices may not be obvious. However, if there is evidence of disturbance or change, inform the vehicle presenter

I reckon you will probably be ok
Cheers

Chris

[RebuiltYorkie]

Hiya Chris
May be this one will upset the cart!?

c. free rotation of clevis joints between cables and levers (this includes cable linkages between brake pedals and remote mounted servos) c. seizure of clevis joint pivots which causes strain or wear to cables to an extent likely to lead to premature failure of the cable

I ain't going to be able to explain in writting, and I've got no means of sending you a picture of the set up...But I can see the way that I've done the job will cause problems on the day of the test.............I'm working on a new set up as of now ..

thank you again, catch you later

Rebuilt

[RebuiltYorkie]

I might have to re-think the hand brake set up at the wheel end at least!?

I've high lighted what I think might be my trikes down fall...I say this because on the levers at the brake drums, I've used two lots of clevis pin bracketts (without pins)..one set is bolted to the brake levers.. (to extend the length of the levers) at the end of each of these are threaded and then passed through the hole of the second set and these in turn are bolted to each other... There is no free movement, rotation or swivele at the cable ends.

If I was to loosen off the bolts then use Ny loc nuts, this would allow movement, but I still have to set up a pully system to push the cable/rod linkage away from the tail pipes in the park position.. Or If I could weld I could weld some flat bar onto the drum levers to extend them, then re-fit the clevis brackets and pins as normal!

[kevin burton]

hi chris,
do you have to have a side light fitted to a motorcycle(1800 goldwing usa import) for the msva test & does it have to work on its own or can it come on with the dipped beam.if you need one fitted is there any particular rules as to where it has to be fitted.
are the usa headlights beam pattern no good for uk as honda dealer says uk & usa headlights are different in beam pattern.

[MSVA Tech]

Rebuilt, good luck with it mate I'm sure you'll come up with something.

Kevin, welcome to the forum.

US bikes usually have amber front running lights in the front indicators. These will need to be disconnected.
You will need at least one white front position lamp (often called side light, pilot light or parking light).

This front position lamp is still required even if the bike has hard wired headlamps (automatic headlamps on I think the yanks call it). so the FP lamp can com on with the headlamps.

The basic rule for lamps is that singles must be on the centre line and more that one must be arranged symmetrically.

The lamp must be above 350mm from the ground and less than 1200mm.

A tell tale warning lamp is compulsory unless the instruments light up at the same time as the front position lamp.

It is possible that the US headlamps are the type designed specifically for riding on the right and will have a "kickup" to that side to illuminate the kerb.

If you drive on the left with this design the kick up will dazzle oncoming traffic even on dip.

To check the headlamps yourself point the bike towards aw wall or garage door on fairly level ground with the headlams about 6 feet from the wall on dip beam you should see a definite horizontal cutoff athe top of the light. If the light slopes up at the right hand side the headlamps will not be acceptable. Replacement is the only option as masking or beam converters are not part of the headlamps original design.

Cheers

Chris

[kevin burton]

thanks for the info chris that clears up those points for me. :)

[titusni]

Hi again Chris

When my trike went thru MSVA we had to blank off the middle tail/brake light as (at that time) we were told a trike could only have 2 tails and brake lights.

I've just been looking at "The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989", Schedule 10 "Rear position lamps" and Schedule 12 "Stop lamps". Both these sections have a "Part 2" that covers optional lamps and these are exempt for the restictions on number of them and position.

So with this in mind:

(a) why was I told trike couldn't have a 3rd brake/tail light and pass MSVA?

(b) shouldn't this pass MOT as Section 9 defines a *requirement* for 2 brake/tail lights but doesn't say optional lamps are NOT allowed and Section 3 covers optional brake lights

(c) Is RVLR part of C&U regs or distinct from it?

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Titus,

I thought this question sounded familiar, we've been here before.

So a)


Hi All

Scorch: Cheers m8 glad to be of help.

Titus: I know your MSVA was done in the early days, what I reckon happened is that because there is no mention of optional stop/tail lights they didn't allow them But (as I keep saying there's alway one) because MSVA is a (GB) national scheme (legislation for the official NI scheme came in Jan) the number of lamps allowed follows RVLR and not EC directives. Directives are cut and dried ie you must have these lamps you can have these lamps and nothing else. RVLR does not limit the fitting of certain addidional lamps and that is reflected in the MSVA regs though perhaps not quite so clearly in the manual. So as long as all your rear lamps are fitted on the centre line or symetrically they will be ok. When alls said and done we all make mistakes at least this one didn't adversely affect safety.

Greg: Not for MSVA m8 they are optional. If your want to fit one they have to be white (the light that is), no more than 2 lamps and the whole lamp(s) fitted between 250mm and 1200mm from the ground.
Reversing lamps are not an MoT test item either.

Right I'm going to be off untill 29th so you all have a good easter and I'll catch up with you then

Cheers

Chris

b) Yep should be ok for the MoT

c) RVLR is a seperate set of regulations from C&U. The primary legislation for both is The Road Traffic Act (whatever year they last updated it). Acts of Parliament are primary legislation and regulations that spring from them are secondary legislation.

Cheers

Chris

[titusni]

Hi Titus,

I thought this question sounded familiar, we've been here before.


Sorry Chris, I'm getting old and my memory span is now shorter than that of a goldfish :D


So a)

So as long as all your rear lamps are fitted on the centre line or symetrically they will be ok. When alls said and done we all make mistakes at least this one didn't adversely affect safety.


Forgotten you'd clarified that - I must mentioned this to my trike builder so he can discuss it with the MSVA testing centre over here for future reference.


b) Yep should be ok for the MoT


This is the reason I'd asked about this again - my trike was in for MOT in December and the tester said the presence of the 3rd brake/tail light was "illegal" and wanted to fail the trike. After a discussion with the test centre manager (who also said it was not legal) they said they would produce documentation to back up their point when the trike returned for retest (as it had failed on headlight aim). A few days later at the retest it was a different tester but when he checked the original tester and manager had not left out the documentation they had promised to produce and the matter was quietly dropped.


c) RVLR is a seperate set of regulations from C&U. The primary legislation for both is The Road Traffic Act (whatever year they last updated it). Acts of Parliament are primary legislation and regulations that spring from them are secondary legislation.


So do the poilice enforce/issue pink slips under C&U or RVLR or both?

If found an online copy of "Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1999" and there's nothing in there about lights so I guess there's no overlap between C&U and RVLR then and the police enforce both...

Sorry for all the questions Chris - I'm just trying to ensure my trike remains legal without having to make any unnecessary changes, so I'll be keeping my 3rd brake/tail light and keeping my parking brake working on just the single rear wheel (although trike guy will make new frame mounting points in case later the MOT rules change and it needs to work on both rears).

[shaggy696969]

Titus , your guy over there does love to wind up the testers , I'd fucking fail him on anything i could find , if i couldnt find it i would also make it up !!! plain ans simple they dont like him. Its like avin a pop at a copper unless you can back it up dont start , and even then its not the brightest of ideas.

[titusni]

Titus , your guy over there does love to wind up the testers


Not at all - as he builds trikes for a living he simply wants to/needs to understand that if something is a failure point why that is the case (i.e. under which regulations) so he can avoid that problem in the future.


I'd fucking fail him on anything i could find , if i couldnt find it i would also make it up !!!


I don't know about England/Scotland/Wales MOT centres, but the centres over here are run by the government and there's no way a tester can just make up a reason. There are formal complaints procedures available but rather than jumping in with that he just wanted the tester to point out which specific regs were the issue - which the tester was unable to do......


plain ans simple they dont like him. Its like avin a pop at a copper unless you can back it up dont start , and even then its not the brightest of ideas.

He's not the only person I've hear having problems with this particular MOT centre.....indeed some people have told me they avoid this place and go to another centre because of hassles they've had in the past.

As for "unless you can back it up dont start", I believe its the other way round with regards to MOTs - the tester needs to explain the specific reason for a failure.

[shaggy696969]

[QUOTE=titusni]He's not the only person I've hear having problems with this particular MOT centre.....indeed some people have told me they avoid this place and go to another centre because of hassles they've had in the past.
QUOTE]


So go to another one, most bikers/builders keep in friendly with their testers , it is more productive, so if there is minor faults like your's then they are advised to sort rather than to fail. Nothing is straight cut the inspectors handbook are guidelines open for interpretation.

I just think you need to ease up on the tester or go have a training course the ministry run em , if he wants to learn mot regs , its more cost effective for the customer !!!

He certainly ait doin you no favours.

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Guys, looks like your havin loads of fun without me.

If by pinkslips you means prohibition notices (PG9)these are based on a book called the categorisation of defects which breaks down defects into various levels of serious from imediate prohibition (vehicle's goin nowhere until it's fixed) to delayed ( you can finish your journey but the notice stays until you have a MoT test to prove the defect is rectified.)
PG9s are mainly issued by Enforcement Vehicle Examiners but some police are trained to be able to issue them to.

The bulk of the effort is usually aimed at HGV and PSV vehicles.

Right I'm off for a couple of weeks evaluating some bikes overseas so be nice to each other and don't think up too many hard questions. :D :confused: :D

Cheers all
Chris.

[Creature]

Chris.

got a q plated reliant engined trike that Im currently rebuilding.

just a few things..

1.. do i need hazzards ??

2.. do I need front number late

[titusni]

1.. do i need hazzards ??

2.. do I need front number late

I think Chris is still away so I'll jump in with some answers.

Hazard are a requirement now for trikes, this has come up several times before on this chat forum.

Front numberplate - a (unbodied) trike does NOT require a front numberplate and indeed I think fitting one to a trike may technically be illegal :-) (I was reading the numberplate regs the other day).

[shaggy696969]

Yet again Titus we are at odds

1 You only require hazards if the veihicle was first used as a three wheeler after 1987 I believe, so its the original age of the reliant , not the conversion.

2 I agree to this , no no. plate on front requirement

[titusni]

Yet again Titus we are at odds


Hey mate, let the battles commence :D


1 You only require hazards if the vehicle was first used as a three wheeler after 1987 I believe, so its the original age of the reliant , not the conversion.


MSVA: I don't think there's an online handbook anywhere but they are a requirement for MSVA.

For MOT regulations see the handbook at "http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual/contents.htm", section 9.1 (specific rules for trikes):

Hazard Warning Lamps, 2 Front, 2 Rear, A telltale must be fitted.

This trike-specific rule overrides the general rule in Section 1 that say hazards are optional on vehicles first used before 1 April 1986.

Section 9 only came into effect in 2004 (August?) so you could have a trike that passed MOT for years before then without hazards and then come the next MOT they fail it......bit of a bummer I agree.

[shaggy696969]

:o Smartarse, not that many testers that clued up, plus so many variants they really cant keep up , our local tester couldn't even tell me what colour the positioning lights on the front of the rear guards had to be , he said he'd pass either white or yellow. plus single handbrake pull fine by him , so i think were lucky up here but shh dont tell no one. I've got a copy of the Mot matters Vosa DVD where vosa explains section 9( and its my understanding ) hazzards are down to specific veihicle type , ie group 3 or 4 , group 4 requires them 3 doesnt . having just watched it, other differences regarding single or twin headlamps and fitment of seatbelts. Fucking confusing watching it so god help the testers. I'm not fitting em , ill let you know how i get on with my test.

[titusni]

I've got a copy of the Mot matters Vosa DVD where vosa explains section 9( and its my understanding ) hazzards are down to specific veihicle type , ie group 3 or 4 , group 4 requires them 3 doesnt . having just watched it, other differences regarding single or twin headlamps and fitment of seatbelts.


I've just heard about the DVD - someone is getting me a copy.......I'm sure it'll be more riveting that a Chuck Norris film :D

Fucking confusing watching it so god help the testers. I'm not fitting em , ill let you know how i get on with my test.

Well you're just going through MOT so it'll be hit-n-miss whether they know to check........whereas for MSVA they'll be more clued up.

[ian trike]

Hi Chris
just a quick question
would it be ok to run a copper brake pipe inside the frame of my trike
just trying to hide as many pipes and wires as poss
thought if i used copper pipe then corrosion woudnt be a prob,
would grommet the holes to stop chaffing
cheers
ian

[ratwing]

The trike is wide enough to need two headlights for the MSVA, I remember reading somewhere that they don't need to be side-by-side but can be stacked one above the other as long as they're still on the vehicle's centre-line because its still symmetrical. If this is right can vertically stacked be different sizes too?

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Ian,

Running pipes through the frame is not in itself a problem but you must be able to prove to the examiner that the pipes are secure. A long length of pipe that can flop about (only using the best technical terms today :D ) will be likely to fail prematurely and of course you wont be able to see it happening.

Don't forget to make sure you have decent pipe to start with, copper or copper/nickel, thick walled (0.9mm 20swg) to BS2871 is whats recommended.


Hi Ratwing,

If your trike has to have two headlamps because it is over 1700mm wide then they MUST be no more than 400mm inboard of the outermost edge of the vehicle and they must have at least 500mm between them. have a look at a Boom or Rewaco.

The lighting requirements vary depending on the type of vehicle the vertically stacked is ok for trikes under 1700mm wide and bikes.

[Shep]

Hi Chris,

This may not be the correct place to ask this, but a lot of folk are getting excited and hot under the collar about this sort of subject, I'm confused, and I need some sensible advice without acrimony.

I have a trike, CX500 engine, built and taxed before the new regs came in.

On the V5 it states:

Make.....Reliant
Model/Type.....Robin super
Body type.....Tricycle
Taxation class....Tricycle
Revenue weight....406 Kg unladen
Cylinder capacity 498cc
The CX500 engine number.

I know I'll have to fit a hazard system for the MOT, but before I do that, will I get an MOT on the basis of my V5 details?

Yours in trepidation,
Shep. :confused:

[scruffytrucker]

Hi Chris,

First, thank you. You have renewed my faith in human nature:).

I was a good way into a trike build when SVA came into force. A lot of rumours were flying around and the general opinion was that "they" were trying to legislate amateur built stuff of the road. I got very depressed and stuck a 90% complete Citroen 2CV/Honda 125 cute looking hybrid in the corner of the shed and threw a sheet over it.

Then a couple of days ago I found this site and your thread, I’ve ordered the MSVA manual and now it’s full steam ahead again.

Unfortunately I’m now in the situation where I have a vehicle that was built without looking at the manual. Most things - light position, dimensions, sticky out bits etc - I’m sure won’t be a problem, but (you’re right, there is always one) there are a couple of things that I assume won’t be in there. If they are I apologise for wasting your time.

1. If your feet are on pegs on either side of the frame and there is a dummy tank and a gear lever between your knees, are you deemed to be astride the vehicle even though the seat is a kidney bean shape (from above)? Obviously fitting seat belts would be a pain at this stage - a seat re-design would be easier, but leaving it as it is would be easier still.
2. Can I use plywood cladding to achieve a 3mm radius on outriggers or does it have to be curved metal?
3. From what I gather reading your thread, and yes, I’ve read all of it, if its less than 1700mm wide I can have a pair of headlights next to each other in the middle as long as one is dip and one is main. Is this correct? If so does “next to each other” mean they have to be touching?
4. I know this will be in the manual but (there’s another one) what is the situation regarding linked brakes (F&R) and car derived trikes? Last I heard they had to be operated from one pedal – very dangerous IMHO when your weight is about 80/20, and the main reason mine got abandoned. I’ll also have the problem of LHM at the back and DOT5 at the front.

Thanks Chris, keep up the good work.

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Shep

Don't want to scare you but how much of the trike is Reliant. If it's just the axle what happened to the original reliant chassis that had the chassis number. Is the chassis/frame number on the V5 from the reliant or the current trike frame or has the reliant chassis number been stamped onto another frame :eek: ?

What do you know of the trikes history, if you have MoTs that pre date MSVA/Type approval (June 2003) it may be possible to get DVLA to amend the details without them wanting MSVA, a lot will depend on the info they hold on their database about the vehicle(s).

There aren't many Mot stations that haven't been computerised now so it will most likely come up as a reliant on the MoT database I don't know if the data can be amended by the MoT station or if it's more in depth. Sorry I don't have an easy answer for you. :o

Hi Scruffytrucker,

Glad you are back in the fold you couldn't have come to a nicer place than this forum. "fluffy mode off" :D

1. from your description your are sat astride the vehicle on a saddle type seat on the centre line so seat belts are not required for you. If you have a pillion directly behind you they won't need a belt either. if you stick a bench seat across the back that will need lap belts.

2. Radii can be achieved using pretty much any material you want 9please don't try to bond razor blade edges together to get a 3mm rad. the other option is to use soft edging (less than 60 shore A, which is about the same as a pencil eraser).

3. Less than 1700mm and only one dipped beam and one main beam are required. They can be in the same lamp body (twin filament bulb), one above the other or side by side within 200mm of each other (put the dip on the left and main on the right) If you want to fit 2 of each type then you have to meet the distance from edge and separation requirements.

4. "Motorcycle" trikes (single front wheel m/c type steering) can retain indepedant front and rear braking systems. "Carcycles" (not an official term) must have all service brakes operated by the foot control. so you will be ok.

Once you have the manual I can be contacted at the office on 0117 954 2544 if you have any questions.

Good luck with finishing your trike.

Cheers

Chris

[Shep]

Hi Chris, thanks for the reply. I'm beyond scaring now, just feel stupid that I've bought a load of trouble.
The VIN plate is rivetted to the frame, and has a Reliant Robin prefix. The only bits of Robin are the axle, brakes and (I think) handbrake(?) and propshaft(?).
The front wheel/forks/brakes, engine/gearbox, tank and frame to behind the original CX sidepanels is CX.
The framework between and the seat is one off.
Don't know what happened to the rest of the Robin.

The earliest MOT I have is 30 September 2003, the MOTs have "Tricycle" in the "Make" box.

OK, looks like I won't be able to get an MOT done on the current details, can I get it MSVA'd and registered properly, even though I didn't build it, and havn't radically altered it? I couldn't care less if it ends up on a Q plate.

[scruffytrucker]

Thanks Chris, That's teriffic news. It doesn't look like I'll have to radicaly alter anything I've already done.:D

God, I wish women were this easy!

[kevin burton]

chris,
if there is a kick up to the right will both headlights need changing or just the right side one.
can deflectors be used.

[MSVA Tech]

Any headlamp with a righthand kickup will need to be changed. Deflectors are not acceptable because we are looking at the design of the headlamps.

[kevin burton]

hi chris,
does a bike have to have a full tank of fuel for msva test as i think i read somewhere it has to.

thanks kev

[MSVA Tech]

Hi Kev,

No you don't need the tank full. We were originally going to follow the car car scheme and insist on it but in the end we changed our little max load calculator to include missing fuel but (there's always one :D ) you must supply an accurate tank capacity.

Cheers

Chris

[pagan dave]

Hi Chris
I may have missed this (if so apologies)but re- petrol caps ie max height above tank (15mm) is this to the domed top or including the domed top of the cap . i think mine will be over, will a simple moulded ramp (like) affair on the tank the riders side of the caps suffice as i cannot find any other arrangement i can afford for a fat-bob tank.
Also re- ign keys, it says if the key sticks uop in front of the rider it will need a plastic cover,is this the plastic top some keys come with or is that way to optimistic.
thanx Dave