Welding question

[Yoda]

Ok can someone explain the difference between one of the electric welders and the gas one
what they both should or shouldnt be used for (ie high strength area's etc..)
i would like to give welding a go and me old man has fot one of them electric ones, so a bit of advice wouldnt go amiss before i start welding my leg to my wheelchair.
(also my wheelchair is titanium will the weld sparks have any affect if landing on it..it cost me a fortune so i dont wanna ruin it)

Yoda

[dracken1]

hi yoda.
i am going to guess that by electric welder you mean a stick welder.
the type that uses a consumable rod.
by gas do you mean oxy acetylene.

if you have not welded before then my suggestion would be to start with a mig machine, were the filler is a reel of wire.
don't use the gasless type if you can help it.

practise by welding 2 pieces of metal together edge to edge (butt weld)
and then clamp it in a vise and smack hell out of it with a hammer. if you end up with one twisted piece of steel then you are on the right track.
if however you get 2 pieces of steel on the first tap with the hammer then you have a ways to go.

if you seriously want to take up welding then i would suggest a course or lessons from someone.
for a beginner mig is by far the easiest to master.
stick welding is one of the most differcult. and i would never recommend it to weld a frame or light tubes together.
it not impossible but not ideal.
gas and tig welding are similar you will need to use both hands for both. one to hold the torch the other the filler rod.

give mig a go if you fancy buying a machine then buy the most powerfull your budget will stretch to.
as a small mig will need to be on full power for most jobs and will only hold full power for about 5 minutes, after which the power will drop off sharply, untill the transformer cools.

i use mig for 90% of work, frames, brackets etc.
i only use tig for tacking light steel together were i don't include any filler rod.

weld spaks/spatter, will stick to a lot of things, it loves winscreens.
it won't harm your chair as such, it can however set you on fire.
you could cover yourself and your chair in a fire blanket.
this will offer you a lot of protection.

one last thing. DON'T LOOK AT THE WELD WITH UNCOVERED EYE'S.
because 5-8 hours later the pain you will get has to be experienced to be believed.

good luck and have fun.
when people know you have a welder they start turning up with the oddest things they want welding.
only this week i had a 50 year old man turn up with a crane he'd made 40 years prior out of meccano. and to perserve it for his grand kids he wanted every joint welded up.
as i said, the oddest things..

[Reliantman]

Yoda.
Just to add to Drakens comprehensive advice, if you can get one, a mig with a fan will give you a lot more welding time. The only time my turbo arc welder cuts out is when the fuse blows, and that is after some heavy work with the biggest rods and current.

Regards.Doug

[Blackjack]

Thing is,

if it needs a fan, it isn't actually that clever. Generally welders have fans because it is cheaper to wind the transformer with aluminium than with copper. As the temp rises the conductivity falls so the current draw goes up and the thing cuts out/ blows a fuse or in extreme cases melts the aluminium windings. hence the fan to cool things down, fans being cheaper than copper.

Though adding a bunch of computer fans to a cheap welder can be a very cost effective up grade. If you can't find a take off in for the appropiate voltage in the welder, wire a socket off the feed and use one of the 12 million power supplies that seem to accumulate in the kitchen drawer. If you wire a double socket you can run the angle grinder/drill off of it and save on tripping over frigging extension leads all the time, just don't run the grinder and the welder at the same time.

Inverter based welders are probably a different matter.

[Trikerbiker]

Hi Yoda...

You could have a look here for some useful information for complete beginners like me http://www.aussieweld.com.au/arcwelding/

Regards

Mick

[JOE]

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I also have no welding experience and would like to give it a go. Just wondering, at work there's an arc welder, is this any use for fabrication/practice/making a strange mess with metal or is it too difficult for learning with?

[weldy]

best idea is fire in and have a go ..if ya got access to equipment try it before you go and buy more expensive gear (just in case you dont like it ..welders are expensive cupboard ornaments).whether its mig or arc just have a go....lets face it ...it aint rocket science ..a bit of time and patience will work wonders


matt

[Yoda]

thanks for all the advice all
Yoda

[dracken1]

lets face it ...it aint rocket science

with all respect it may not be rocket science.
but i've seen ugly welds that will out live the best of us.
there again i've seen real pretty neat welds that have only slightly more
penetration than a lump of body filler.

get your own spray job wrong and your mates might laugh at you.

get welding wrong and your mates might be wearing black

don't want to put anyone off, but if you are the slightest bit unsure of your skill. then pay someone to do it. :)

[Sir Ewok]

with all respect it may not be rocket science.
but i've seen ugly welds that will out live the best of us.
there again i've seen real pretty neat welds that have only slightly more
penetration than a lump of body filler.

get your own spray job wrong and your mates might laugh at you.

get welding wrong and your mates might be wearing black

don't want to put anyone off, but if you are the slightest bit unsure of your skill. then pay someone to do it. :)

As a welder/Assessor that's the best advice you will ever recieve regarding welding. By all means play with the kit (under supervision and with the correct PPE) but DO NOT weld anything structual. When you have something looking good cut it in half (across the weld) and check the penetration. You will be shocked at what you see (especially with MIG). Once you realise that very few peeps can just pick up a torch and weld, go to college or night classes and learn properly. It's better to wait two or three years before making your new trike, than six months before it collapses under you.

Good luck, but learn from the professionals...........

[Yoda]

the main reason was that i would like to weld my own (non structurals) bits on (tie down brackets etc..) i wouldnt dream of doing anything that would require serious loads on it.
Cheers all

[weldy]

a bit of time and patience will work wonders

i never said to go straight in and weld structural joints did i ??????hhmm

practice is the best way isnt it !!oh yea and ive only been doing this for 18years (with codes) aqd i didnt see any mention of trikes in joe's thread ..did you ???

[Yoda]

no you didnt mention it
but i wouldnt trust myself enough to do that sort of stuff
the main reason is i am fed up haveing to beg people or pay ott prices to have little things done, when i could screw it up myself and then have to pay someone to sort out my mess :D

Yoda

[dracken1]

ok calm down weldy. no ones knocking you,

i felt that you over simplified the skill needed.thats all.

and it was ewoks thread that mentioned "trikes" something a triker owner does to use as an example
i build trike shells and frames and often refer to "trikes" when discussing
fabrication/welding.

[Mad Dog]

just a footnote to what Ewok said.

In Australia all welding must be carried out by a Qualified and Recognised welder. A certificate is issued with all work.

Some good lessons there - especially when you see some of the frames that inhabit our roads - or the death trap "bedstead" ironwork trikes, pre-SVA.


Another good thing from Oz is that all boat owners right down to Jet-Skis must pass a test and get a license before they can go out on the water.

[eddie axeman]

if you buy amig welder get the best you can aford the higher the amps the better get one that holds a 5kiloreel of wire and check the duty cycle of the plant the higher the amps the longer the duty cycle this basicly means if you buy a small welder the higher the amps you use the less time the welder will run before it over heats

[Mustang Boy]

just a footnote to what Ewok said.

In Australia all welding must be carried out by a Qualified and Recognised welder. A certificate is issued with all work.

Another good thing from Oz is that all boat owners right down to Jet-Skis must pass a test and get a license before they can go out on the water.

When you say all welding, do you mean ALL Welding or all structural/vehicle etc....(not gates/railings).
Just curious??
Sorry Yoda, i'm not hijacking your thread!!

Cheers'en. :D

[dracken1]

blimey someones been browsing
a 2 year old post :)

[eddie axeman]

okay it was my fault i looked at it only trying to help nothing new that i could help with

[xjtriker666]

vehicle wise m,b, ausie,s are rait keen on vehicle building,trikes especially,and modded cars,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ya need a certificate fer everything,welding fabrication engineering,,,,

[gothtec]

Again more advice needed on welding.

I've got and arc welder that I'm not getting on with so I'm looking to move to a mig. I've got a 100 squids and so can only stretch to a new gasless mig at halfords...

Any advice?

I'm looking to build a small trailer (one wheeled) so need to produce a halfway descent weld.

I would take classes if I could find any!!

[Blackjack]

Again more advice needed on welding.

I've got and arc welder that I'm not getting on with so I'm looking to move to a mig. I've got a 100 squids and so can only stretch to a new gasless mig at halfords...

Any advice?

I'm looking to build a small trailer (one wheeled) so need to produce a halfway descent weld.

I would take classes if I could find any!!

I'd be pretty sure that a £100 gasless MIG was going to be less than useful to you.

Your trailer is what? 1/8" material? Well that's 125 thou, so you need somewhere around 125 amps to weld it. And this £100 from Halfwits (sorry Halfords) gasless MIG is rated at???

I'm assuming you've got an oven? Try putting the rods for the arc welder in it, anything over 120 Centigrade for a couple of hours, then have another go.

I'd also guess you've got a POS hand held mask that came with the welder? Well if you can't see what you're doing, you can't wweld worth a **** anyway. Since the POS Halfwits welder probably comes with a POS hand held mask too, which probably has a lens suitable for observing solar flares with and not a lot else, try spending the £15 or so that a proper helmet with a suitable lens for the amps you're welding at costs. Even if you end up buying another welder you can still use the mask.

Bottom line is that spending £100 on a gasless MIG is a waste of money unless you're working with thin stuff, and even then its still a Piece Of ****.

[scruffytrucker]

I'm assuming you've got an oven? Try putting the rods for the arc welder in it, anything over 120 Centigrade for a couple of hours, then have another go.




Dumb Question - What does this do?

[Blackjack]

Not that dumb a question.

The flux coating on the rods absorbs moisture, and this fucks things up. Tends to make the rod stick, and all sorts of other nastiness.

Baking them in an oven drives off the moisture and makes it all lovely again. well as lovely as it gets anyway...

Using the right gauge of rod for the thickness of material your welding helps too...

[Big Pete]

The field expedient way of drying the rods is to stub the rod down straight onto the work while wiggling the holder so it doesnt stick. The dead short heats the whole rod up pretty fast, you can see the water coming off. It also gets the rod tip glowing red, which makes starting the arc easier. On 3mm box section I use a 2.5mm rod, which makes arc starting and holding easier, but doesnt tend to burn through like a 1.6mm rod could. Also 1.6mm rods are a PITA because they wave around all over the place. Preheating the joint with a gas torch (plumber type one) makes life easier as well.

[gothtec]

I'd be pretty sure that a £100 gasless MIG was going to be less than useful to you.

I'd also guess you've got a POS hand held mask that came with the welder?


Thanks for the heads up.

I do have a full head mask and being able to see the weld has its advantage. The problem I'm having is inclusions and I've read that migs are easier for the inexperienced.

Where could I get a mig for a reasonable price?

Anthony

[xjtriker666]

screwfix,,,,,evilbay,,,,

[Reliantman]

Machine mart. Cheap rods as well.

[Blackjack]

Thanks for the heads up.

I do have a full head mask and being able to see the weld has its advantage. The problem I'm having is inclusions and I've read that migs are easier for the inexperienced.

Where could I get a mig for a reasonable price?

Anthony

Tried your local free ads type newspaper?

For the sort of money you're talking about, I've got no idea other than being lucky. Somewhere around £400 ought to get you decent used light industrial welder, which if you ever decide to sell it is still a decent used light industrial welder and as such worth around £400...

Buy a new "hobby" welder and decide to sell it, you're seling a second hand hobby welder whic ain't likely to fetch what you paid for it.

Sometimes it's cheaper if you spend more money...

[Peirre]

sound a dumb question
but whats my 170amp, 5 mtr euro plug lead, running 5kg 0.80/1.00 wires na flip over drive rollers inc full size argo tank worth atm?
we are talking high duty cycle, industrial machine ere, approx 4ft x 3ft x 2ft (L/H/W) on castors
its sat at the back of the garage, and I ain`t using it atm, and theres no current projects in the offing

[Mustang Boy]

sound a dumb question
but whats my 170amp, 5 mtr euro plug lead, running 5kg 0.80/1.00 wires na flip over drive rollers inc full size argo tank worth atm?
we are talking high duty cycle, industrial machine ere, approx 4ft x 3ft x 2ft (L/H/W) on castors
its sat at the back of the garage, and I ain`t using it atm, and theres no current projects in the offing
What make is it??

[Peirre]

I`ll take a look in the mornin`
the beer goggles are too snuggly fitted atm

update: it says STERLING on it.
though in hindsight and a sober head its best I`d hang onto it atm till I upgrade

memo to self; get a bigger garage

[eddie axeman]

the price is determined by wot type of welder it is wether you can get spares if it works properly and if who you sell it to knows wot their looking at and if they do will they be honest or rip you off single phase is worth more to the home welder than 3 phase is and how many amps isit :p

[Peirre]

a plater/welder in the past, I knew exactly what to buy, and what to spec up, when I bought it new, all the consumable parts are generic with industrial machines, (motors, euro leads, liners, tips, rollers etc).
Well i had to make sure I had a steady supply of replacement part from work didn`t I ;) and its heavy duty enough to the point that the only problem is that the curcuit breakers in the garage can`t keep up with the power demand it req`s